Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon

Yes, I've read it, I own a copy.  It is my families foundational guide for all things food and nutrition.

My family and I do not eat meat with every meal, often not even daily.  We do eat raw (not pasteurized) yogurt, cheeses, kiefer and such most every day, plus our own naturally raised eggs.  I like to say we are light on meat and grains, heavy on fruits, veggies, fermented foods and legumes.  But to this I would add a strong goal toward food diversity and eating more 'raw'.  I am slowly working us toward more and more control over our own food supply.  Like climbing a mountain it is not easy, but worth it.

This NT has a very different way of approaching food than our modern society embraces, and so it takes time to change one's thinking along the lines of Nourishing Traditions, and incorporate the new routines and habits.

A copy of the book is very reasonably priced on Amazon.com.

Do you have specific questions or concerns?

I have just bought it and I'm enjoying reading it though it's challenging almost ALL of the food beliefs that I have been brought up with for 40 odd years!!!

I was interested in the unpasturised milk bit (don't know if I can even track any down here in France) but my hubby says no way, milk gets pasturised because that's safe and to drink other is folly.  In fact here in France they are BIG on UHT, something I've never drunk until moving here a year ago.  Now I'm questioning that.

There's lots more that I'd like to add but my children have just woken up so my time at the PC is now finished - sigh.  More later.

Okay - I just did a quick search on why you don't want to drink pasteurized milk....

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/03/26/pasteurized-milk-part-one.aspx

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/224796/the_dangers_of_pasteurized_homogenized.html?cat=22

Granted you will find just as much on why to pasteurize your milk, but consider this - for much longer than we've been pasteurizing people have been drinking raw-milk, and although it can pose some concerns these only warrant careful handling, much the same as any meat product.

I have been honorably sick twice (you'd think I'd learn) on purchased chicken garlic pizza (my favorite) because it has a mayonnaise based sauce and not tomato based one (acid).  I am guessing that the cooks/teenagers would handle the mayo sauce the same as the tomato (very unwise).  So knowing your food and how it must be handled is a big part of cooking-wisdom and skill   No one has ever gotten food poisoning and such from any food from my kitchen, and I am not fussy about germs.  Just know your food..... that's all it takes.

Finding raw milk has been my biggest challenge, not to mention -grass feed- raw milk.  I'm kind of a network for local food and info so this helps a little.  But I won't feed my kids pasteurized milk, we do buy some cheeses from the store, which I hate but I cannot do better until I am on some land - so I compromise a little for now. 

As for your husband - the safest way (bacteria wise)  to ingest raw milk is in a fermented form like that found in homemade yogurt, kiefer, cottage cheese etc.  So start there with him.

As for your changes in food prep - I would recommend you start with one thing from the book and incorporate that into your life and routine, when comfortable add another.  Most people soak their beans overnight because of gas anyway so starting to pre-soak all your lentils and grains overnight might be the easiest to adapt to first.  And if you have looked into no-kneading bread (artisan bread in 5 minutes) they pre-mix the dough and sit out on counter (fermenting) for several hours before refrigerating.  So if you make any doughs, pancakes, muffins, breads etc. use this same process of pre-soaking (some call it making a dough sponge) overnight - easy

Keep adding more processes and keep re-reading the book, you'll be wonderfully surprised after a few months, and very happy you starting these changes after a year.

This way of preparing food changes your taste buds over time, really helping you to appreciate real food tastes and breaking free from processed foods, soda and other bad health habits.

I hope this helps!

~Jami

I fall somewhere in between both camps on the raw milk debate. I drink raw milk and love it and feel very safe. but I raise and milk the animals myself. I think that not everyone can have or find a clean source of raw milk and that pasteurization can allow them to have some of the benefits of milk safely. I also think that both sides (raw and past.) tend to hype up their info. loss of nutrients is often exaggerated by raw milkers and safety concerns are grossly exaggerated by the pasteurization camp.

I don't have time at the moment to go find all the sources to site but this might be food for thought.....

"The kind of feed ingested by the cow has a greater effect upon the nutritive value of milk than does pasteurization."

that is from this abstract. I admitedly have not read the whole pdf yet so reader beware..
   http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/12/763?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=pasteurized+milk+nutrition+loss&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

I really appreciate and utilize some of the actual research done on things such as this to make sound decisions. so many of the proponants of either side have other agendas that you can't be sure how much of the truth they are stretching.

homogenization I find to be much more threatening the pasteurization. we cook other foods so I have trouble believeing that milk becomes toxic when cooked.

fyi. the mercola desription of pasteurization is only one way. there is also "flash pasteurization" which I have used in the past. the following is also from an abstract in the journal of dairy science pertaining to vit c and pasteurization.....

"There is no significant destruction of vitamin C in milk by the Electropure (electrical conductivity) or StamVik (flash contact) methods of pasteurization when all-aluminum equipment is used. This is probably due to: (a) a very short heating time, (b) methods of heating, (c) protection from atmospheric oxidation during heating, and (d) a minimum exposure to metals which catalyse oxidation."

as always. it is more complicated and more frustrating to figure out then would be ideal!

Thank you ladies.  I'm going to see if I can find a source of raw milk.  If not, well we'll just need to produce our own (which I'd probably be more comfortable with) - can I do all the same things with goat milk that I can with cow's?  In the meantime... 

Leah, so you reckon that grass-fed ie organic still has great benefits even if pasturised?  Jami's first article seems to say that pas. organic milk is a waste of time.

Now onto sugar.  I bake a lot for my family and thought things like flapjacks were a great way to get oats, nuts, apricots into my oh-so-fussy #2 child.  Now I feel bad.  So Rapadura.  I'm on the case for this now.  Is muscovado sugar similar?  I have loads of this (which I can't get in France so I've had to bring over loads from the UK as it's a much nicer taste than 'normal' sugar)

one downfall and benefit both of goats milk is that it is naturally homogenized. this means you get very little cream rising to the top to make butter but you get that cream naturally mixed in with the milk, so it is just a preference thing. cows milk is often mechanically homogenized which possibly messes with the fatty acids in a bad way.the thing about grass fed is how it changes the fatty acid profile, and it contains more 'good fat'. pasteurizaton won't change that (from my understanding). but there is certainly debate over whether or not it changes the fat profile enough to justify anything. debate is never far when your are talking about nutrition and milk.

It is very very difficult to get unbiased information regarding milk and nutrition for a variety of reasons. I suppose the ajds where I sited abstracts probably has an agenda. I once found an "abstract" there that seemed more like a cover up and the pdf that should have described how they came to their conclusion was "unavailable". but at least you are looking closer to the source of information. you can search for abstracts/studies with key words at their site. which I find to be fascinating, even if it sometimes raises more questions then answers! that is the nature of real scientific inquiry. there is rarely a one time investigation that settles anything!

I think that if you can find (or produce yourself) good clean raw, unpastuerized, organic, forage fed milk then you have a stellar source.  but if you can't accomplish that you shouldn't spend too much time fretting over it and just find the best source you can and put your effort into ways to improve other things in your life.

I don't know a thing about sugar. except that I eat too much of it

can I do all the same things with goat milk that I can with cow's?  In the meantime...

Mostly except, because it's homogenized making butter would be a big pain.
Goat's milk is a good choice http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/rawmilk.htm

Leah, so you reckon that grass-fed ie organic still has great benefits even if pasteurized?  Jami's first article seems to say that pas. organic milk is a waste of time.

Grass fed, hormone free milk has a huge advantage over any other this is true.  Mercola has some evidence on the hype businesses are using when claiming 'organic'.  Seems organic labeling doesn't always produce clean healthy food products.  So he doesn't want people to have a false sense of security when it comes to organic labeling.  That's his take on 'organic labeling', but not the idea of organic.  Many healthy food growers use the labeling of 'natural' to indicate a standard higher than the governments 'organic' label.


So Rapadura.  I'm on the case for this now.  Is muscovado sugar similar?  I have loads of this (which I can't get in France so I've had to bring over loads from the UK as it's a much nicer taste than 'normal' sugar)

Rapadura is the pure juice extracted from the sugar cane (using a press), which is then evaporated over low heats, whilst being stirred with paddles, then seive ground to produce a grainy sugar. It has not been cooked at high heats, and spun to change it into crystals, and the molasses has not been separated from the sugar.  It is produced organically, and does not contain chemicals or anti-caking agents.

[B]Rapadura is what I use in my Kombucha and natural sodas.  I use stevia our drinks, green stevia in some cooked recipes.  For baking I use dates, honey, agave and natural maple syrup.  Because Rapadura is dehydrated at a low heat, the vitamins and minerals have been retained, which is not true of most modern sugars.

There are similar products to Rapadura, such as Sucanat  (USA - a trade name), and Jaggery (India). Sucanat is different to Rapadura in that the sugar stream and the molasses stream are separated from each other during processing, then reblended to create a consistent product, whereas Rapadura is a wholefood product which can vary according to sugar cane variety, soil type and weather.

Muscavado, Turbinado, Demarara and 'Organic Raw Sugar' are all refined, though not as much as white sugar. They are the product of heating the cane juice until crystals form, then spinning it in a centrifuge so the crystals are separated from the syrupy juice (producing molasses). The crystals are then reunited with some of the molasses in artificial proportions. The molasses contains vitamins and minerals, and is recommended for a healthy diet, but the crystals themselves are pretty much 'empty carbs.'

'Raw' sugar is not really raw - it has been cooked, and a lot of the minerals and vitamins are gone. Still, it's better than refined sugar because it has a little of the molasses still clinging to it. Some sugar is sold as 'organic' raw sugar, and people think this means it's unrefined - all it really means is that it's grown with organic agricultural methods, then refined as usual... the juice (molasses) has been mostly removed, and there's not really much goodness in it.

A great website for recipes and info is http://gnowfglins.com/?s=sugar&submit=Search
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Back to Milk:  I do not agree that cooked foods are equal to raw - especially milk!  I won't go into all the facts and science, others have done that already.  There is a lot of passion on both sides as Leah points out.  Also there is some new information coming to light about the milk from different breeds of cows (and goats). 
This page gives a good run down http://www.foodrenegade.com/healthy-milk-what-to-buy/

From Food Renegade:

Most modern milk comes from more recent breeds of cattle producing milk abnormally high in A1 beta casein. A1 beta casein is a slightly different milk protein than the ancestral one common to more traditional breeds of cattle, sheep, goats, and even humans, known as A2 beta casein. Mountains of scientific research have been done on the subject of A1 beta casein, the way our bodies digest it, and the slew of mental and physical disorders it can cause. (For a more complete look at the research, I highly recommend you read Devil in the Milk).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1603581022?ie=UTF8&tag=g0c0d-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1603581022

So do the research and settle it in your own mind, that's the best way to proceed....

♥ Jami

MORE ON MILK: quoted from Food Renegade....

This may help you -

What to Buy

So, in the face of all these choices, what kinds of milk should you buy? The key is to stick to traditional milks — the kind your ancestors have been drinking for thousands of years.

BEST CHOICE: Raw, non-homogenized whole milk from grass-fed cows producing milk high in A2 beta casein and relatively low in A1 beta casein — that means milk from Jerseys, Guernseys, and other traditional cattle breeds rather than newer Holsteins. Raw, non-homogenized goat’s milk, sheep’s milk, and yak’s milk only contains A2 beta casein, so you could make a great argument for giving raw goat’s milk preference over raw cow’s milk if you can find it.

SECOND: Raw, non-homogenized whole milk from other grass-fed cows.

THIRD: Lightly-pastuerized, non-homogenized whole milk from grass-fed cows.

FOURTH: Lightly-pastuerized, homogenized whole milk from grass-fed cows.

Notice What I Didn’t Say

I didn’t say to buy organic milk. Most major-label organic milks (like those coming from Horizon or Aurora dairies) are not only NOT grass-fed, but they’re also ultra-pastuerized. The health risks associated with milk that’s been ultra-pastuerized and from cows fed grain outweighs any benefit you might get from the milk being organic.

That said, organic standards do count for something. At least the milk is guaranteed to be antibiotic and hormone free from healthy cows.  So, if your only choice is between standard cheap supermarket milk and organic milk (and you’re unwilling to do without milk or use milk alternatives), then by all means get the organic milk.

Where To Buy Real Milk

The best way to find real milk is to seek out local sources. Since raw cow’s milk sales are restricted dramatically in most places, you’ll have to “go underground” to find it.  In many states and countries, you can co-own a cow through a herdshare arrangement. You pay for a portion of the cow’s upkeep, and in return you get a portion of the cow’s raw milk. Technically, you’re not buying milk. You’re buying a cow.

Finding these arrangements can be tricky, but it’s doable. Just start asking around and visiting your local farmer’s markets.  You’ll very likely find a local farmer selling lightly-pasteurized, non-homogenized milk from grass-fed cows right at the market.  And, if you ask them for information, you may be able to find out how to get your hands on raw milk via a herdshare or driveshare arrangement.

excellent breakdown of the options that could be available Jami ! although people may have to work to find it a bit, if a family tends to use milk alot it would be well worth finding the best source possible to obtain a supply from.

I have Nourishing Traditions also and really like it.  I can't make major changes in the way we eat right now because my grandmother still usually cooks supper (and it's usually leftovers from supper for lunch) -- cooking is still something she can do, so I don't want to take that away from her.  However, I did get her to try a kimchi recipe a while back, and she grew up making sauerkraut the old-fashioned way, so the ideas in the book aren't totally foreign to her.  DD and I use a lot of kefir (made from raw milk from my goats) and I make cheese whenever I have a surplus of milk.  I found a cheese-making forum that will hopefully help me figure out how to make some of the hard cheeses that I haven't had much success with.  And, DD and I both have celiac disease (she is also autistic and has lupus) so we had already cut back pretty drastically on our intake of grains.  I'm reading a book now called The Maker's Diet by Jordan Rubin (almost died of Crohn's when he was nineteen and was healed on the diet) and he follows Nourishing Traditions to a large extent.

Got to go shovel snow!

Kathleen

Brilliant again Jami.  I'm thinking we might have to get a cow.  We have 17 acres here and at the mo we've no clue what to best use it for - currently just pasture.  Goats was one option though I now realise that I won't be able to make butter from their milk.  I guess we could have both??

Homogenized milk - I hadn't really stopped to think (as I've been brought up on totally skimmed milk) but now that I look, you hardly ever see bottles of milk with cream sitting at the top like when I was little and the milkman left it on the doorstep.  In fact, you hardly ever get to see the actual milk thanks to the packaging - is that the plan I wonder?

Do you think that the harm done by following a low-fat diet can be undone?

I've started off my sourdough bread.

For Christmas I was given a wonderful DVD of The Victorian Farm and we are loving it.  So many of the things in NT are being done there.  Why did we lose touch??

This journey is leading me to uncover all sorts of things that I never questioned before.  My brain is awash!

Do you think that the harm done by following a low-fat diet can be undone?

I have hope that it all can be undone  

I buy virgin coconut oil to replace store bought lard for cooking.  I use olive oil for light foods, and real butter.

Hi!  I'm brand new to this permie forum....though not to forums or permaculture in general.....

Well, this thread turned out to be a lot about raw milk....and I agree with what several other posters said - the origins of the milk are probably more important than the treatment.  I really don't see how a product made of grass and a product made of grain can be called the same thing in the store (and that goes for all animal products), but that's the nature of industrialized food systems.

Anyway.  I LOVE Sally and her cook book.  The main thing that a first time reader will notice is that she takes the concept of slow food to a new level.  Almost everything begins with a fermentation time that's usually at least 8 hours.  These soaking periods, usually with raw whey or yogurt as the innoculating agent, allow the grain or flour or whatever to be pre-digested by micro-organisms and enzymes, unlocking many nutrients for our short digestive tract, degrading toxins if they are present (and they can be, even in (especially store-bought) organic food).  We don't have access to affordable raw milk (we keep talking about a cow but we have barely enough acreage) but I notice a difference in the quality of our digestion when we use sour dough starter for pancakes, or mix the freshly ground flour (she's big on that too - freshness is important with ev-er-y-thing) with yogurt overnight before making muffins.  Anyone with grain allergies should try preparing flour recipes with these fermentation times, or switch to sourdough only, in my opinion. 

I think the lack of these living things in "fast"/processed food is probably their most damaging aspect.  The excerpts from many books and studies in the margins of the pages of NT can keep a person occupied for hours..."They *ie an indigenous culture* traditionally ate WHAT?!"  The native american man recalling contests as to which young man could eat more fresh, warm buffalo intestine faster....that one sticks with you. 

A thought came to me as I was reading the greenhouse thread....but it's relevant here too:  To what lengths are we willing to go in how we change our diet to reflect new (actually ancient) information?  We go to great lengths to grow and preserve foods that we are accustomed to eating.  If we were willing to actually revert to diets more like the ones of indigenous people who lived in all kinds of climates before the rise of industrialism, the "need" for greenhouses and the like could be eliminated, right?  Would we need to buy or grow grain if we harvested all the acorns near us (to site an example that's pertinent to my specific situation)?  Would we relish acorn muffins as much as wheat ones? 

Another book I love that deals more specifically with fermentation is Wild Fermentaion by Sandor Katz.  Sally even wrote the introduction!  His story is inspirational, and his perspective of microbes as the last 'wild' frontier is exciting to me. 

We use a lot of flax seed meal and often I will soak it overnight in kefir before using it.  I've done the same with oatmeal.  I did find that soaking wheat flour overnight, or even for 24 hours, won't get rid of the gluten in it, although it made some very nice bread!  Next I want to grind some split peas or lentils and soak them in kefir for a while and see what I can do with that -- I have diabetes, also, and have to keep the carb content down.  Legumes are pretty high in carbs for my diet, but fermentation uses up quite a lot of the carbs.

Kathleen

I've started a different thread on mini cattle, which might be a 'milk' source for people with little land or muscle - anyway I like the idea myself, closer to a goat in size but with the butter fat on the top    And mini Jersey's are tooooo cute.

Different people have different intolerances to gluten, soaking does work for many making gluten flours tolerable again. 

Another big boost to health is food diversification, so grinding and using other foods (acorns?) as flours would be a great idea, might help with food sensitivities too.

We experimented with acorns one year when we lived in the Willamette Valley, where there are a lot of white oaks with sweet acorns.  Mixed with wheat flour, it made excellent muffins and pancakes even without any leaching (this was before I knew we had celiac disease -- now I'd use rice flour or something to mix with the acorn flour).  But we don't have oak trees where we are now, on the east side of the Cascade Mtns.

Kathleen

Jami - the mini cattle thread - on what area of the forum?  My eyes are failing me today (lack of sleep for baby I think!)

Kathleen - how much flour do acrons yeild up?  Do you just mill them straight up as you find them?

On NT - yikes you have to be mega organised don't you!!!  I need to make whey, yoghurt, buttermilk etc etc before I can even start lots of the recipes.  Plus lots of specialist ingredients that I'm not sure where to find here in France. Still I'm willing to give it a go. Going back to the UK to visit at the end of the month so I'm building a shopping list 

I think the easiest thing to do in that book is making a sour dough starter and using that as the foundation for baked goods.  No fancy milk products necessary, just good water and fresh flour on a regular basis.  The little bubbly sour guys do the rest. 

I didn't mean to imply that soaking or fermenting can eliminate gluten.  That's cool about the carbohydrate reduction, I knew that as a fact, but didn't think of it in terms of helping a diabetic diet.  I think my favorite non-gluten grain for baking flour is millet - probably because it's so easy to grind (ha!).  Quinoa I often find bitter in finished products.  I'm about to put zucchinni-millet muffins into the wood stove.  Out of season and (organically) grown in mexico, but there was a bag of them for a $1 at my food store!  So muffins they are to be.  Millet flour makes sour dough veerrrry sour, all the sugar must encourage the lacto-bacteria?

heninfrance wrote:
Jami - the mini cattle thread - on what area of the forum?  My eyes are failing me today (lack of sleep for baby I think!)

It's under Critter Care - scroll down

On NT - yikes you have to be mega organised don't you!!!  I need to make whey, yoghurt, buttermilk etc etc before I can even start lots of the recipes.  Plus lots of specialist ingredients that I'm not sure where to find here in France. Still I'm willing to give it a go. Going back to the UK to visit at the end of the month so I'm building a shopping list 

Well yes and no - Yes it does take some real effort to adapt to the whole new way of prep before you cook thing, I to found this tough to do in the beginning.  So you should pick something and do it several times until it is part of your routine, then you add another, and so on.  Soon, you start to think ahead for the foods you want to make the next day or so and you find you are setting up soaks on a regular bases.  NT is not a recipe book so much as a whole new way of thinking cook book.

However after you start to adjust, all the effort seems to fade, the steps become second nature, more like keeping a sour dough starter going, or kombucha going or whatever, you just do it and it really isn't hard.  It's the change from instant or right-now cooking to something covering a day or two that is the hard part.  So just practice and don't take on to much at one time.  This 'olden' day way of preparing food can seem overwhelming - so go easy on yourself ♥

I use kombucha (fermented green tea) which we have brewing continuously instead of whey.  And/or apple cider vinegar or yogurt sometimes, this helps when the milk source runs dry for awhile.  Their are other suggestions in the NT book, like lemon juice, etc.... the agent isn't important as long as it's alive in a fermenting way it will work for the predigesting soak.

I'm so happy that this forum is talking about this; its even talked about in a Traditional Technology group I'm a part of.

If you guys like this book; check out Full Moon Feast, its an amazing book.

The author Jessica Prentice who with her 3 fellow Worker-Owners started the countries first Community Supported Kitchen and usies the food preperations of Aboriginal and Indigenous peoples throughout the world with some modern twists.

She even coined and spread the word "Locavore"

Also known as "THE FOOD BIBLE"


only problems i can nitpick about... no information on wild plants, not enough on fruits, something that I want to be the mainstay of my diet, not enough about wild animals or even the less common domestic ones... not enough info about fermented meat products...just a little bit too little info on vegetables.

I wish it got a bit more into food physics and helping to create your own meals that are nutritionally sound.

Still, by far, by FARRRR the best cookbook that I have ever seen and certainly the only one I have read cover to cover!

If you loved Nourishing Traditions, I'd strongly recommend Nina Planck's "Real Food". I have both and consider Real Food to be Nourishing Traditions 2.0. It doesn't contain the recipes, but makes up for it with a ton of data. If reading Nourishing Traditions left you hungry for more information about nutrition, then you'll devour Real Food (ok, done with food puns)

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:
I found a cheese-making forum that will hopefully help me figure out how to make some of the hard cheeses that I haven't had much success with. 

Kathleen

Hi Kathleen,

where is that forum?

Thanks

Zoran

I own this book and enjoy many of the recipes.  One of my favorites is the yogurt dough.  I make a double batch and  make quiches with this.  Sometimes using muffin pans, I make mini quiches.

What did you think of Jordan Rubin's book?

I have all listed but Real Food - guess I'll have to get that one too 

I don't feel Jordan's book goes deep enough, instead I like Cure Tooth Decay by Ramiel Nagel - he goes way into phytic acid and proper dealing with grains/seeds + more.  I suppose if we always processed our grains correctly things like crohn's disease would be very rare.

I have Nourishing Traditions but did not find it helpful. The information about vegetarianism is not factual. The "science" quoted is out-of-date and much of it not even science but stuff from pop magazines or things the authors themselves wrote. It cast doubt for me on everything else she said in there. I am not a vegetarian, btw.

My favorite cookbook right now is Grain-Free Gourmet. It has really changed the way I eat and the recipes are pretty darn good tasting.

Hi Frenchlady (your name is far too complicated for me), it is funny because in France there are heaps of unpasteurized cheeses. We don't get them here and I once bought a Gruyere and it was AWFUL!
I have a sheep and milk it and I know if you don't take care you can get dirt in the milk. So if milk is poured together from different farms pasteurization might be a good idea, but if you know where you buy that's another thing. But here it is even forbidden to sell milk privately.
I had the book once from the library and while I agree with lot of the stuff she writes her recipes  seamed odd to me, I wouldn't even try them.

If you look at the history of pasteurisation it was to prevent the transmission of diseases such as TB.  I grew up in Europe - Germany and France and my grandmother always boiled the milk even though it was already pasteurized.  She was deathly afraid of TB.  I think old ideas die hard.

I love the book and we have incorporated fermented foods into our diet with very positive results.  Some of them take a bit to get used to.  I still hate the taste of beet kvass, but I drink it and give it to my family. 

As another poster said, we should make a goal of eating real food.  Real food includes fats and unprocessed foods.  I think the naturally occurring fats such as butter makes so much sense compared to the highly processed canola/corn/soy oils we believe are so healthy.  Nothing but a marketing ploy in my opinion.

wynot, it was good to get your post as it made me come back and read the thread again.  I'm pleased (and proud) to report that SO much has changed in the year since I wrote the original post. 

We found a source of unpasturised milk - apparently lots of French folk never buy their milk at the supermarket, just go to their local dairy farm and get it straight from the cow so we do too now - and I make all our own yoghurt, strain it a bit and get whey.

We no longer have refined oils but do eat lots of fresh butter from grass-fed cows - straight from the dairy again as above.

We have lovely thick cream.

We eat REAL food now and it feels good and tastes GREAT 

That's so good to hear Alison   good for you.

Things have changed for us too - I mostly use sourdough starter for all things now, and I've just started making impossible pies (an old Bisquick short cut for sweet and savory - one pan dishes!).  Well I use a sourdough version in my cast iron and it is wonderful, easy too.

Last night I browned up onions, hamburger, green chillies and garlic, mushrooms, sprouted mung beans and spices in my cast iron pan.  Then I turned off the heat and added a cut of cheese on top.  Then covering it all with my sourdough batter, moving the filling a bit to allow the batter to seep on the sides and bottom of the pan.  Pop it into a oven for about 40 min.  12" cast iron pan was used.  It turned out great and I didn't have to soak anything over night.  This recipe can be made without the meat too.

Sourdough (Bisquick) batter for impossible pies:
This amount is for 10" skillet - I double it, minus 2 eggs for a 12"

3/4 cup sourdough starter
1/4 whole milk
3 eggs
1/2 tea sea salt
1/8 pepper if savory - or a couple tablespoons of sugar if sweet.
and just before pouring over your ingredients add 1/2 tea baking soda stirring into the sourdough mixture well.  It should expand and bubble.

Set oven to 450F

Ah that illusive sourdough.  I've had 5 attempts at making a starter now and all have failed  so I'm in awe of those of you who can get it working.

I didn't start my own    I got some dried starter off the internet.  But now if I ever need any I would use Craig's list or something to find others in my area with starter.  I only use rye in my starter because it's suppose to be better at capturing the wild yeasts.  Did you try rye flour?  Also fresh milled flour is suppose to help the process too.  I hate to see a crying smiley.

My daughter and I have to eat gluten-free, and have found that any flour can be used in sourdough, so use whatever you want to use and have available.

Kathleen

Alison Freeth-Thomas "heninfrance" wrote:
Ah that illusive sourdough.  I've had 5 attempts at making a starter now and all have failed  so I'm in awe of those of you who can get it working.

You gotta be kidding... 2 ounces of flour 2 ounces of water (or pineapple juice if it goes off on you, I don't need it here) leave it for 24 hours at 70F, longer if cooler (I had to wait about 48 hours). Add 2 ounces of flour and 2 ounces of water... leave for 24 hours... should show some sign of bubbles.... throw half away and add 2 and 2 again. May have to start doing this every 12 hours after a bit. Once you have gone for about a week or so it should be ready to use ... means after feeding it should double in size after about 3 hours.

This makes a fairly wet 8ounce batch. Easy to keep... not what most bakers use, they use something around 60 to 70% hydration instead of 100% because it matches whatever dough they normally make. However, you normally have to make more of it for most recipes so when you do add more flour than water till it is the right hydration for the recipe.... or, do what I do. All of my formulas are with the starter included in the water and flour amounts, so if I need 36ounces of starter, I subtract 18 ounces from the flour amount and 18 ounces from the water amount.

To store (so you don't have to keep feeding it every 12 hours for the rest of it's life) feed the starter (I use warm water - 110F) and put it right in the fridge. I have left it there for 2 weeks with no problem.... I am sure it would last longer but I think I might pull it out and feed it about once every two to three weeks if I was not using it. I normally use it once a week to make bread for the week... instead of throwing half out, I use that half to make bread.

I use it all once year and start over (I know most people try to keep it going indefinitely) Easter week normally. It reminds me I'm not so hot, everything is provided to me, I just catch it.

Instead of throwing half out... use it to make pancakes...

I give this book 10 out of 10 acorns.

Nourishing Traditions is an excellent eat-well cookbook, loaded with thoughtful, well-researched health information and recipes. It does go against some mainstream health concepts; so prepare to scrutinize your own beliefs about healthy eating. I give this cookbook 10 acorns even though I'm vegetarian, as there are plenty of vegetarian and adaptable recipes; and Fallon certainly makes a fine argument against being strictly vegetarian. I'm no longer concerned about health consequences of eating eggs, and feel less guilty about eating fish eggs. I've also found a local dairy farmer to purchase raw milk from.

Alison Thomas wrote:Ah that illusive sourdough.  I've had 5 attempts at making a starter now and all have failed  so I'm in awe of those of you who can get it working.

Find the book 100% rye here if you want the secrets to rye sourdough, I also made 5 attempts and was about to give up, this taught me about 5 things I needed to know to make it work. http://ryebook.nourishingdays.com/ $6 for a nice pdf copy.

Nourishing traditions to me is the bible of nutrition, not an easy lifestyle change by any means but once you have the philosophy you wont lose it, and junk food will not appeal to you. I have to drive an hour every two weeks to the nearest farm that has raw milk and a whole store full of traditional foods that are used in the recipes. We have plenty of good food locally as well but the laws in this state are firmly set to protect the milk processors.

I give this book 10 out of 10 acorns.

Nourishing Traditions is probably my favorite book. It changed my life, and armed me with the information for all the food conversations I have had since I started reading it. I became the person people call with food questions. It’s the book that stared a movement, and it deserves it’s food cult status. Sally Fallon invited westerners to join the rest of the world, teaching us how to reconnect with the old ways of preparing food, reminding us who the real health experts were - our ancestors. This book shattered the low fat paradigm, among other ill-advised “health” food standards. She literally turns the food pyramid on it’s head! Full of references and beautiful recipes, this book will forever change your perspective on food.

Updating my original posts -

We have been producing our own meat (culling chicken, duck, geese and raising our own pork and beef) so our meat eating has increased along with bone broths, broth gravy, etc. I have recently added eating all of the pigs we butcher, adding heads and trotters to the offal we already consume.

We got a dairy cow (traded pigs for her) so raw milk, cream, butter and soft cheeses were added to our diet. We are still not milk drinkers per say - just not in the habit, but we've learned to add it to tea and other drinks on occasion.

I still look at Nourishing Traditions as the book that got me started down the road of questioning all things food, and testing my children for food allergies - changing our diets as well as taking responsibility for the foods we eat. I think any book that gets us thinking is a good book

I agree with Annie 100%!