BUY A Smaller lot in your farm ?

Would like to be on any list that you put together for those
of us who would like to buy a smaller parcel in your farm.
That way we have a place to go whenever we want
and can build or bring in a place to live.
Have very little money or phycial strength, but
am an elder with lots of sills and talkents, and knowledge.
Please let me know cost to buy in if that will be offerred.

I don't think I will sell a piece. I think the mission is to have something that goes in a particular direction. And I'm working really hard to try to bring together like minded folks - in a way that is different from how other communities are formed. I'm projecting my stuff and inviting people that think they would be comfortable in this space - complete with my dictator package.

When doing a deep exploration of community, there are powerful issues with founders syndrome, as well as how do you eject people that don't work out? If somebody bought something, then they would be impossible to eject. I'm pretty sure in a podcast I told the story of a consensus based community that had a bad egg and eventually all the rest of the community moved out leaving only the bad egg.

I have far too much that I need to accomplish to risk losing the whole community to one person. So it is critical that I own all the land.

I do like to think that there will be people that come and stay for many decades. And I suspect that each person that comes and stays for decades will have a different relationship. Some might be renters and some might be workers. Maybe there will be new kinds of relationships I have not yet thought of.

Paul, I think you are right that control of your property needs to reside with you, or maybe eventually a board of directors. But as an older woman myself, I am very sympathetic to the idea that people with more money than physical vigor should be able to live in the community and contribute without fear of being kicked out as long as she was living up to her membership agreement. I recently heard of this happening to an older woman who was dependent on her SSDI, as she had injured her back (this in a community whose formal arrangement is that each member kicks in $400/month, as well as work pretty much full time.) During particularly rough times, this woman kicked in nearly her whole check in order to keep the community going, as well as doing much of the kitchen work and as much gardening as she could manage. But she was forced out by younger members who came in later. There were personal issues as well, so I'm not saying it was a simple situation. REgardless, she devoted well over a decade of her life and income to this community, and when she left, she officially qualified as homeless, and had to start building her post-community life with the aid of social workers.

I am not likely to want to join your community - too far from the ocean! - but I think this is a serious issue to contemplate. Because there are plenty of older boomers who have never forgotten the dreams they had before they surrendered to cube farms in order to raise children. No, they can't do the physical work anymore, but they do have cash...

What About Pre-Paid Rental

I agree with Paul. SELLING is a bad idea. First you possibly can't due to title shenanigans and there the stated control difficulties. Here in Australia I have 222 acres and dealy wish for others to join me. All capital for house construction / tools and machinery is out of my pocket and they pay rental. i was thinking of monthly rental, but Paul, you could have folks pre-pay for 5 or 10 years on the understanding that either party can with draw from the deal and monies pro - rata repaid.

Advantages: 1. You get you funding 2. They get the dubious honour of living with you on your terms, where on the property and whatever umbrella rules you establish, 3. Total flexibility for both parties. 4 NO INTEREST PAYMENTS 5. Rent is fixed for the term of occupancy - an advantage for the renter.

What do you reckon?

Of course anyone interested in my Grafton place ( very sweet land) .... for Sure ... talk to me.

Garry

I was thinking that perhaps there would be a piece of land , or several, next door to Pauls farm, that someone could buy and subdivide, for folks who wanted to have thier own investment and still help out on Pauls farm. This would build two communities. One on the farm and a larger one on surrounding lands. Sort of like how the old homesteders settled new lands.

I really like that idea! Is there any way that could be worked out??

jacque greenleaf wrote: Because there are plenty of older boomers who have never forgotten the dreams they had before they surrendered to cube farms in order to raise children. No, they can't do the physical work anymore, but they do have cash...

Permie angel investors...

I'm not sure which way to go here. I'm older but not old. I have a little money but not a lot. I'd like to live minimally (tiny/small house). I have health issues but I think many of the issues would go away in a more natural environment with a better diet. I'm working on the diet as best I can, where I am. I want to be part of a community. I'm not going to be able to work physically all day, every day.

I've listened to many of Paul's podcasts and think that his way of dictating would work for me. I do have issues with authority.

All of the above sentences start with 'I'. It is important to realize that each person brings their own baggage. If someone says they don't have baggage they are lying, probably to themselves as well as everyone else.

My current thought is that the next step for me is to meet Paul face to face. Judging his character is pivotal to making my decisions. Meeting me would be pivotal for Paul to make his decisions regarding me.

Is there a calendar for where Paul will be over the next few months? I live in Seattle. I would be willing to travel to meet Paul.

Thank you!

As I see it, subdividing it into smaller, private parcels would not work (well).

Firstly, Paul's vision/mission is based on an overall plan for the entire property. If there are pockets of privately owned parcels within that land (which he would have no control over), his mission would begin eroding before he even began.

Secondly, for each parcel that gets divided off, it would require legal work at the county level. Hiring surveyors. Involving lawyers to handle the subdivisions with the county planners/assessors. And by subdividing, it sends the message to the assessors that his land is 'an investment'. As such, if he sold off ten 2 acre plots, his property taxes could actually be higher for the remainder than it would be for the entire plot, as it now stands. Subdivision and improvement puts everything in a new perspective, tax-wise.

A lot of people have been contacting me and then today I replied to a request like this from somebody I know. Somebody who has also listened to all of the podcasts. The request was phrased very differently.

As i was writing my response, ideas starting popping into my head.

So I called my friend and we did some brain storming. Wow - some really good ideas.

I called Jocelyn and did some more brain storming ....

So i wanna at least sleep on this a coupla nights, so this isn't an offer. This is just an idea.

In another thread there is the idea of renting a chunk to express artistic vision in seed and soil. But what is desired is: pay more now, and then no more rent.

My friend wants to build a wofati. For him, this would be a second home - he currently lives in missoula proper. Maybe someday he will move permanently - maybe not. We'll see how things go. But he wants to do all the permies projects - his way. And he wants to do it within my boundaries - to express his vision to similar artisans. And do all the things you can do with lots of land that cannot be done on an urban lot in missoula. But he wants the security of something that is, effectively, permanent. So he can reap the rewards of his efforts for decades to come.

So the particulars come with termination: either party can terminate at any time. Upon termination, all of the land and improvements revert to me and what is left of the money is returned. His position is that that is fine - he knows me very well and is sure that that would never be exercised. And he is not interested in stuff like equity. mostly he wants to play a part, express his vision to like minded folks, network, and have land without all the headaches.

Jocelyn likes the idea of calling this a "land commitment".

At the moment I am thinking that we set up a time frame of two weeks, starting on friday. And saying $20,000 for two acres. Then we pull the plug on the offer. A little later we come back with the offer for ... maybe .... one acre. Somehow the deal won't be as sweet.

When people get to the land, we wander out and mark off the two acres. Of course, keep in mind that there will eventually be limitations on segments of the land - so if you want to have company over willy nilly, you will want two acres at basecamp. If you build on the first section, there could some day be a requirement that people have listened to at least 12 podcasts. And for the rest of the land, people will have listened to at least half.

So far - this just brainstorming. No commitments. In a couple of days this sort of thing might be offered and I suspect that there will be several takers.

Paul, I have a similar arrangement in my current living space.

I think you should have a written agreement with any person to whom you offer this. You might think about rental agreements you have signed in the past, which covers things like pets, guests, number of vehicles, alcohol/drugs, wear and tear and/or damage to common areas, etc. It should also cover what you undertake to do in your role of world dominator. Then allow for termination of the agreement "for cause" by either party immediately at any time. If conditions of the agreement have been / are being met, but life has changed for someone, then allow for/require some reasonable notice. You are essentially offering a leasehold to encourage folks to invest, both emotionally and financially, in your project.

Agreements can be individually negotiated to a certain extent, but should all cover the same bases. It's true that some/most of this would be covered in your community policies, but including these provisions in individual signed agreements nails them down that much tighter.

Maybe I'm too anal, but IME a reasonable written agreement will head off lots of problems!

jacque greenleaf wrote: I recently heard of this happening to an older woman who was dependent on her SSDI, as she had injured her back (this in a community whose formal arrangement is that each member kicks in $400/month, as well as work pretty much full time.) During particularly rough times, this woman kicked in nearly her whole check in order to keep the community going, as well as doing much of the kitchen work and as much gardening as she could manage. But she was forced out by younger members who came in later. ...

Well, in this case, there is only me to make the decisions about whether people stay or go.

Garry Hoddinott wrote:What About Pre-Paid Rental

I agree with Paul. SELLING is a bad idea. First you possibly can't due to title shenanigans and there the stated control difficulties. Here in Australia I have 222 acres and dealy wish for others to join me. All capital for house construction / tools and machinery is out of my pocket and they pay rental. i was thinking of monthly rental, but Paul, you could have folks pre-pay for 5 or 10 years on the understanding that either party can with draw from the deal and monies pro - rata repaid.

Advantages: 1. You get you funding 2. They get the dubious honour of living with you on your terms, where on the property and whatever umbrella rules you establish, 3. Total flexibility for both parties. 4 NO INTEREST PAYMENTS 5. Rent is fixed for the term of occupancy - an advantage for the renter.

And there is the idea spelled out. Maybe this was rolling around in my head and then when I had the conversation earlier I bumped it up from "5 or 10 years" to "life"

Is there a calendar for where Paul will be over the next few months? I live in Seattle. I would be willing to travel to meet Paul.

It sounds like I will be in the Seattle area around mid june. The exact dates depends on a lot of things. Wanna help load a moving truck for Jocelyn?

Have you listened to my podcasts? I think that will give you a really clear idea of what I'm like.

Here is a video somebody took of me at a workshop i was teaching a few months ago:



And here is my in front of a much bigger audience:

Firstly, Paul's vision/mission is based on an overall plan for the entire property. If there are pockets of privately owned parcels within that land (which he would have no control over), his mission would begin eroding before he even began.

Exactly that.

Part of this mission is that there would be 20 artisans in seed and soil each expressing their ideas of permaculture on their chunk of land. My thinking is that all of the land will meet my standards. And I think people will have a lot to teach me.

I also think that people will prefer to start on the first part, or at base camp, because I will be less strict.

Secondly, for each parcel that gets divided off, it would require legal work at the county level. Hiring surveyors. Involving lawyers to handle the subdivisions with the county planners/assessors. And by subdividing, it sends the message to the assessors that his land is 'an investment'. As such, if he sold off ten 2 acre plots, his property taxes could actually be higher for the remainder than it would be for the entire plot, as it now stands. Subdivision and improvement puts everything in a new perspective, tax-wise.

Not gonna do that.

-----

On a related note: I think that anybody that is going to do the land commitment thing is going to have to have listened to at least 90% of the podcasts before we can even start this conversation.

I think termination stuff would be without cause.

I think the termination stuff would be the most important part:

- either party can terminate at any time for any or no reason

- for each parcel, there would be estimated rent for each year at the time of payment. the remainder is returned on termination

I suppose it would be good to mention:

- the land always belongs to paul

- all improvements always belong to paul

I suppose a typical one acre scenario could be:

$20,000

year 1: $500
year 2: $1000
year 3: $1200 ($100 per month)
year 4: $1400
year 5: $1600
year 6: $1800 ($150 per month)
year 7: $2000
year 8: $2000
year 9: $2000
year 10: $2000
year 11: $2000
year 12: $2000
...

So, after seven years, $9500 would be used up. So $10,500 would be paid back. After 12 years, $19,500 would be used up, sp $500 would be paid back. After 13 years, it would all be used up so nothing would be paid back. No further rent is paid and as long as neither party objects ....

I had a tax client in the past who moved out of the country and I lost contact with so I can't ask the details now, but he owned a house in Maryland if I recall correctly, could be wrong on the state, but the point was that he owned this house but not the land. The land use had been paid some tiny amount and gave him rights to use it for 99 years. Tribes and commercial property have used other variations on such a long term land rentals.

I'm looking for land here also for my expanding goat farm, and considering alternative and creative models to allow others variations on full participation in their dreams too, so this is a very interesting thread to me. I had previously contacted Paul to see what the deal was when he was needed to get the additional money secured. I kind of wanted a reason to make me get out there LOL! So I'm interested to see what he winds up offering.

I suspect there are many more possible models from the world and history, than what we consider in our typical "buy or rent" dichotomy... What's that great quote about being limited only by our imagination.... I think dropping all our known models, just looking at needs, a fresh idea will emerge.

All the best,
Lacia Lynne

So I have stewed on this for a few days and we are officially doing this.

Jocelyn likes calling it "land commitment". Another idea was "perpetual rent". I thought "long rent" sounds good. Maybe "deep root"?

Somebody asked "what if the person dies? don't you need to make sure that the land goes back to you (me) in their will?" No. Because it would be the same thing for any renter. The owner of the house still owns the house after the renter dies.

So I think that the $20,000 stuff described above will be for two acres up to May 28, 2013. Then for one acre after that. The clock starts the moment you break ground. So if you put in $20,000 and two years later you change your mind and have never broken ground, then you can have your $20,000 back.

If you break ground, and then want out a year later (or I've decided I don't want you), you get back $19,500. And so on according to the schedule above.

I think that the plots will be circular/hexagonal. One acre has a radius of 118 feet. Two acres has a radius of 167 feet.

Yesterday, i went to TL with the guy that might be the first to do this. His position was that for a long time he has been searching for a few acres to get something started. But, of course, that has some complications of its own. And you could find yourself in the middle of a neighborhood feud. Or in spray-ville. Plus, the cost of a few acres is going to be something like $60,000 for bare land. I was worried about whether things might turn out that he wants to leave or I want him to leave. He said he had zero worries about that.

I guess that's a big part of the key: if people have a spec of worry about our relationship in the future, then they really aren't a fit for this.

Another big thing to think about: where will the plot be? BC? the first section of TL? If you are going to have visitors willy-nilly, you probably want BC. If you only want visitors that meet the minimum requirements for the first section of TL, then .... well, you get the idea.

So if you want to do this, please contact me directly.