Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

1 A very high number of people got shot with their own gun.
2 Your more likely to get robbed just for the gun.
3 Kids killing kids with parents gun.

I grew up in the city and even owning a gun is dangerous.
So I am a vunerable women in the country, I already got my site robbed more than once. There are a lot of dangers but everything I know about guns says its more dangerous to own one than not. I do realize that a lot of people are not responsible enough to own a gun and guns don't kill people (but that is thier only use to kill something). If you are not prepared to kill someone coming at you (meaning shoot to kill) than for get it. I believe I am more likely to claw your eyes out than be able to shoot kill. What about bee keeping? seems to me people really don't like to go near bees. A dog would alert me early and maybe even an attack dog?Ughh.... Sigh...I'm really not sure

Responsible, trained firearm owners do not increase injury rates. Unfortunetly not every gun owner is responsible and trained. So the real question is "can you kill another human with your weapon?" If the answer is NO, for whatever reason (inability, lack of skill, lack of conviction, beliefs, whatever), then you need to find another answer.

A well-trained dog would be an excellent answer. If you have experience with dogs, you'll have some background; otherwise, do your research and volunteer at shelters to begin to understand dogs. Guard Dogs are a deep investment in time and effort that pays off, but if you can't invest the time then you will get no good returns.

Good for you for even asking the question.

P Thickens wrote:Responsible, trained firearm owners do not increase injury rates. Unfortunetly not every gun owner is responsible and trained. So the real question is "can you kill another human with your weapon?" If the answer is NO, for whatever reason (inability, lack of skill, lack of conviction, beliefs, whatever), then you need to find another answer.

Great answer!

I would add that if you are going to have a gun for self defense it's a good idea to have a less than lethal alternative. Pepper spray, bear spray, taser something along those lines. That way you have options in case you are ever forced into that postition. If an attacker / robber / tresspasser doesn't respond to your warning they get the LTL weapon, if they keep coming then they are insisting that you use copper jacketed lead. Also a warning shot into the air can act as a LTL alternative, and shows you mean business and know how to defend yourself.

+1 to the dog

Even a small yappy dog can help alert you and distract an attacker long enough to allow you to get your weapon.

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.

Depends on the circumstances and state. Every firearm owner should do her research before presuming to have a working weapon in the home.

P Thickens wrote:

Depends on the circumstances and state. Every firearm owner should do her research before presuming to have a working weapon in the home.

There is no state in which it is legal to shoot someone for trespass. The circumstance can not be simply trespass.

I think Brad was refering to less than lethal "LTL" when addressing those that trespass.
Trespass isn't limited to the curtelage of the property it could include entering of a building as well.
I've always lived in a home that has had firearms so familiarization and a concept of just how dangerous they can be is important.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.

Depends on the situation. For just tresspassing yes that would be illegal, that's why I suggested a LTL, less than lethal, alternative.

Ingham County Prosecutor, Stuart J. Dunnings III, says that you have to be in great danger before you kill someone in self defense. That issue is laid out in a statute. He says, "Here's the hitch, has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death or sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if certain things apply."

Cooley Law Professor Ron Bertz says, "The statute is a self defense statute, so that's only applicable when another person is physically threatening you with great bodily harm. You walk into your backyard and some guy's pointing a gun at you and says, 'You're dead now buddy,' you can pull out your gun and shoot him first. I mean, that's the oldest rule in the world and there never was a statute on that until just about a year ago."

It's important to remember that just because someone is on your property, you can't just shoot them. That's trespassing. However, if someone enters your home to commit a felony, Bretz says you can use deadly force to protect your property. He says, "If somebody's breaking into your house, that's not called burglary, that's called home invasion, and that's a felony. If somebody's breaking into your house or has broken into your home, the court cases say you are allowed to use deadly force."

Bretz says, "It's applied differently, depending on what state you're in. Some states, like Michigan, we call the 'Make My Day' states from the Clint Eastwood movies. In other words, if somebody's trying to steal your stuff, you can shoot them. And, to be more specific, the law in Michigan is the citizens in Michigan have the right to use deadly force which is defined as anything that can cause death or serious injury. You have the right to use deadly force against anyone who's committing or fleeing from a felony."
Source: http://www.wilx.com/regional/headlines/80377282.html

Shooting someone should always be a last resort, but if you fear for you life you can use deadly force to defend yourself. That being said you better make damn sure you can prove deadly force was neccessary, and that you exhausted other options first if possible, hence the LTL alternatives.

This was from MI, you location may vary.

Brad Davies wrote:

P Thickens wrote:Responsible, trained firearm owners do not increase injury rates. Unfortunetly not every gun owner is responsible and trained. So the real question is "can you kill another human with your weapon?" If the answer is NO, for whatever reason (inability, lack of skill, lack of conviction, beliefs, whatever), then you need to find another answer.

Great answer!

I would add that if you are going to have a gun for self defense it's a good idea to have a less than lethal alternative. Pepper spray, bear spray, taser something along those lines. That way you have options in case you are ever forced into that postition. If an attacker / robber / tresspasser doesn't respond to your warning they get the LTL weapon, if they keep coming then they are insisting that you use copper jacketed lead. Also a warning shot into the air can act as a LTL alternative, and shows you mean business and know how to defend yourself.

+1 to the dog

Even a small yappy dog can help alert you and distract an attacker long enough to allow you to get your weapon.

Agreed completely. Guns are tools to achieve a goal, just like any other potentially dangerous tool, proper education, training and use are a must. You wouldnt just jump in a car for the first time and expect to operate it safely, the gun is the same thing. Too many idiots give responsible gun owners a bad rap. Far more people get injured or killed from vehicles than guns, it all comes down to personal responsibility. Without knowing your particular circumstances its hard to make other suggestions for self defense/protection.

Awesome, I didn't know the legalities of tresspassing and I will check my state and fed laws on owning and concealing or if anyone has the fed laws that would be great here. I do know that if they are in your home that's a different set of laws. What I am getting is everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is telling me "you better get a gun, your going need a gun". For example lets say I have had the feeling someone is watching me, at this time all I have is simple sheathed knife (whole other subject) but it is on my hip and some pepper spray next to it might at least let a trespasser know that I am aware. A decent size dog by my side highly trained would be a big plus. If I am in my home and the dogs going crazy that might be a case where I would be more likely to shoot to kill if they enter. What I like about the dog idea is in case I'm not home but if they are committed they simply shoot the dog that I love. Thats when I thought of the bees because you can't just kill bees and they are easy to keep and good for the environment. Next step, Bear traps...ha whats the law if you severely injure someone that trespasses.

If a person is willing to allow their posessions to be taken and submmit themselves and their children, family and friends to, rape, murder or whatever, there is no need for that person to have a gun.
As mentioned in earler posts we should know how to load, unload, handle and use a gun safely.

Thoes who think they would defend themselfs or there family with a tea cozy should get a tea cozy, have learn how to use one and keep it handy.

Tyler, My understanding is, in the state you live in it is very legal to use nessary.

Let me state that I am not against guns. Our most important right Is the right to own property and the 2nd is the right to bear arms to protect it. In states that gun ownership is more relaxed there is less crime. I am worried about the government taking our rights because lets face it the only defense we have in case of a revolution (which I would gladly fight for) is our firearms. I believe in my rights and if I need a gun to exercise them I will.

Theresa Whited wrote:Let me state that I am not against guns. Our most important right Is the right to own property and the 2nd is the right to bear arms to protect it. In states that gun ownership is more relaxed there is less crime. I am worried about the government taking our rights because lets face it the only defense we have in case of a revolution (which I would gladly fight for) is our firearms. I believe in my rights and if I need a gun to exercise them I will.

Exercising your right is a great reason too! Just be responsible The NRA will have laws, and google searches will yield different laws. My rule of thumb is, no one gets shot until they are in my home and are a obvious threat. If they are running for the door, DO NOT shoot them in the back! From a legal perspective, you have to prove you are defending yourself not using the weapon as an offensive weapon. Too bad our domestic laws regarding offensive defense arent followed internationally.

Very well said Rob! You too Theresa, your last post clears things up a lot.

Yes Mr. Valley, you see why I started this thread, I am torn between the dangers of gun ownership and my basic right to protect my family.

One day my little brother came home alone from school in the North County St. Louis. He walked in as the juvenile thieves ran out the back door (1 my brother could've been dead). They vandalized the house and took all my pops guns mostly for hunting (2 these juveniles were specifically looking for guns). They eventually caught a 12yr old waiting at a bus stop with my pops shot gun to kill another teen (3 more guns in the hands of juveniles) If anyone is familiar with Kenloch or the projects next to St. Louis Airport this is where my pop grew up and then me. I did grow up around guns and ate plenty squirrel, rabbit and dear.

I was looking at http://www.primos.com/landing_page2.aspx a hunting cam for surveillance. Is anyone using surveillance to detour trespassers? It seems like a pretty good idea because no matter what happen you would have proof.

After the LTL. Here are my thoughts if I did buy a gun. She says "you need a shotgun" I am 115lbs and don't they have a lot of kick? Then they say "a 9mm is good for you" even the add at the bottom says not good if you need to shoot to kill. I recently shot a G22 Gloc (still learning not sure spelling) and it was surprisingly easy http://mudfem.blogspot.com/ (a small video) every time I watch this video I think "who the hell is going to be scared of that"..ha. What gun is not to expensive, easy to shoot and easy to handle for the sole purpose of protection?

Lets be clear on what your goals are. If its to protect against the common thief, there are alot of things you can do without a gun, like good lighting with timers/sensors, dogs, alarm system with obvious signs, visibly secured doors/windows(not all glass), and many more…..

If you are afraid of violent confrontations including home invasions, then defensive training for your home specifically, and personal real self defense training(not sport type martial arts) is what you want if you don’t want a gun. Unless you are willing to build a fortress with armed guards, just knowing your home and how to defend it the only alternative without a gun. For example, if you live alone you cant rely on anything including dogs alarms etc to protect you, because someone that is willing to harm you for whatever reason, will without a doubt get past defenses. This means that you need to have more than one way of communicating to the outside, LTL options and you need a safe place to hold up until help arrives(this assumes help is still available). Its not a clear cut solution. Im not an expert, so please take my advice on getting professional training for your home specifically, with or without a gun.

The last thing I will say is build community, a strong community will be a good defense against crime and violence. A large group of dedicated moms on the watch, working together are more effective than police at this point in time.

Theresa Whited wrote:After the LTL. Here are my thoughts if I did buy a gun. She says "you need a shotgun" I am 115lbs and don't they have a lot of kick? Then they say "a 9mm is good for you" even the add at the bottom says not good if you need to shoot to kill. I recently shot a G22 Gloc (still learning not sure spelling) and it was surprisingly easy http://mudfem.blogspot.com/ (a small video) every time I watch this video I think "who the hell is going to be scared of that"..ha. What gun is not to expensive, easy to shoot and easy to handle for the sole purpose of protection?

As for home defense guns, any gun is better than no gun. However, its my personal belief that a 12g shotgun is the most effective for the lack of penetration, range and power. Im sure someone will disagree If you have never shot a 12g, go find somewhere to shoot one before you buy. If its too much a 20g or youth shotgun would work too. Although I own a pistol, I dont rely on it for home protection by itself.

Theresa,

In that case I would recommend if you do make the choice to own a gun you should invest in a locked case to keep it in. Select one that is either too heavy to pick up, or can be secured with bolts from the inside. This way if thieves do come by again they will either be deterred, or have to work really really hard. The trail cam is a great idea, I would select one with IR so it will work at night. Make sure it's in a position to get a license plate # or faces as they enter / exit.

My roommates family had a similar incident with someone breaking into their cottage in Northern MI. They kicked the door down, ransacked the place stole a go-kart, electronics, ect.. They also did the same to the neighbors cabin. The neighbor only visits his property maybe once a year so he had devised a setup that dropped a very thick piece of lumber across the door from the inside. I have no idea how he did it, but it was like a medieval deadbolt. The robbers would not be deterred, so they took a chainsaw and cut a new door into the log cabin. once inside they found nothing of value and left. My roommates family reported it, then placed a trail cam in the woods overlooking the entrance to their driveway and cabin. A few months later the thieves came back to have another look around. The cam picked up their license plate #, the sheriff was notified and went out to ask him some questions. When he got to the guys house there was a shiny red go-kart sitting right out front next to the garage. The thief went to jail, probation violation, and also got some new charges.

Brad,

I will have a gun safe, I will take a conceal and carry class, I will learn my gun inside and out and shoot regularly to stay familiar and everything else we have spoken of. Just so we all know that there's not another "idiot with a gun".

I do believe the surveillance is the best protection. Unfortunately most of them are for computer users and that is sometimes hard for people in remote areas. The thing about is as long as you replace the batteries you can always delete old images and then if something did happen you would have it on the camera.

I deleted a couple of posts from here.

I would like to remind folks to please state your position without suggesting that anybody on permies is anything less than perfect.

Also, if you quote a post that is outside of my comfort zone, I'm going to delete that too.

This issue does have controversy, so let's all please attempt to be respectful of other positions.

I haven't read every word but I don't think anyone is faulting victims. Forgive if it sounded that way. It is terrible what some people have done to them. The loss of property in nothing to the loss of life, injury or foul treatment.

What made the people of England free was the longbow, it was inexpensive and the people could protect themselves and their family from the lords, the bandits and the strong. It led to the sighing of the great paper{ The Magna Carta}

Se vis pachem para bellum, if I spelled it right means: If you wish for peace prepair for war.

Well, we don't have need to get ready for war, tho being able to make it unsafe for unkind people to hurt you and your loved ones, is more than a good idea.

Hi Theresa,

My dad was a gun collector, and his best friend owned a gun shop. Granted, we were in a small farm town as opposed to a big city, but my dad had me shooting before I started kindergarten. So, you probably already guess what side I'm on.

Like the others have said, you really want to be comfortable with a gun. Practice with it on a regular basis so you don’t get rusty. If you do lock it up, you’ll want to have it in a location that will be easily accessible in the event that someone does break in; often you don’t get much notice, and if it does happen, you will be panicky and will have a hard time opening the safe.

I'm 5'2"and about 110lbs, and I can handle a shotgun just fine. Shotguns look very daunting to a burglar. Plus, you don't have to be as good of an aim with a shotgun (again, you’ll be panicked and shaking if the worst occurs). The shot will not travel far, as opposed to a handgun. If there are people in adjacent rooms this will factor in. I have a Mossberg that came with two barrels, and I keep the shorter barrel on it. It makes it just a bit lighter, gives it a wider shot dispersion, and it’s easier to wield around. Skeet shooting is a good (and fun) way to get used to a shotgun.


As for the high number of people who get shot with their own guns- from what I’ve seen, they are usually the ones who never really learned the respect that goes with gun ownership (for example, always, always treat a gun as if it’s loaded, be aware at all times where the barrel is pointed, never mix alcohol and guns, etc). Living in the city gives a different perspective of guns than what someone would get in a farm town. There’s no hunting going on in the city, for example; usually, guns make the news as part of a crime.

If you plan on actually carrying your handgun with you, then a concealed carry class will be good; however, there are other classes that teach gun safety and self defense that may be more appropriate in your case.

Good luck!

Interesting post Mr. Valley,

Lets not forget what my daughters calls "weapons of opportunity" and where I come from would be "surviving in the projects" ..ha. What could you keep handy to protect yourself? A bat, a shovel, my pop likes brass knuckles. What ever it is you keep under your bed or by the door (that is not a gun) just in case, lets hear it.

Good afternoon. Weapons of opportunity? In my training, that could be a pencil, ladys have used 10" long hat/hairpins. I prefer piece, a lady from bristol. I saw a deck of cards used.

I once traveled a long distance to pick up a friend, arived later than I knew. When I approached the back door, a ladys voice from the upper deck said" Please don't move" my friend hadn't mentioned I would be coming and his mother wanted to know who at that hour would be this far into the compound. I didn't move. I thought it very wise of this family.

ninja with samuri

Theresa, you really need to ask yourself some basic questions about homesteading, where are you doing this? If you are moving to a rural area the culture includes guns. They are not there because of robbers or criminals they are tools of farming/homesteading. You will have lots of trouble trying to use a self defense oriented weapon to clear your garden of pesky vegetable predators, however a proper predator weapon would be appropriate to make a bad person think twice about harming you or your family. You will be doing a service to your children to teach them what guns are used for, most of us who grew up with guns in our families used them as tools for entertainment by hunting or trap shooting the idea of actually shooting a bad guy was really way far back in the world of possibilities. We had dogs for the bad guys and they were very effective. The people of my age (50) have grandparents who remember using horses to farm with, most of those people could do more damage with a shovel or hay knife.

So with that being said guns are not the only weapons to use for self preservation. Archery is pretty deadly with the right person pulling the bow string. I am pretty sure I do not know of anyone who has managed to shoot themselves with a bow and arrow. It is a skill which has to be learned. This means spending time to learn how to do it, lots of time if you want to be good at it. If you do it well it is fun and there are others who share this love and it just adds to the numbers of people in your network. There are some other things but probably not really practical but still could be defensive. Hatchets can be thrown to take someone out, I have seen that done before in a reenactment, mock of course but still very deadly. Big knives work pretty well but if you lack strength they would not be a realistic option.

So if you are in a big city and homesteading there, do you really need a gun? They attract attention and where you going to go to teach your kids safe gun handling procedures. You would be better off with a dog and a baseball bat.

Brenda Groth wrote:ninja with samuri

I was wondering if anyone would bring up Asian weaponry, they do seem to be very creative with hidden metal stars and such. I think you would have to definitely be trained an knowledgeable if you want your hands and feet to be deadly weapons.

Sort answer "NO" middle answer "it depends" long answer "what all these folks are saying"

A firearm is a tool like an ax or knife. not everyone has, wants or knows how to use an ax. its best if one who does not know how to use an ax, not use one till they can do so safely; this requires a bit of training.

Walter Jeffries wrote:

Theresa Whited wrote:So I am a vunerable women in the country

Get several dogs. Big dogs.

OK, ready for the circular argument? You might need a gun because of your dogs!

That's what happened to me, anyway. After 18 years of living in the woods of Vermont, I finally got a 22 (my mother's day gift). The day before, one of my dog got quilled. The new vet charges $400 to fix this, as opposed to $80 when the old vet did it. I have 4 dogs and after some quick math it seemed to me I might have to shoot some porcupines.

Ultimately, I didn't shoot any porcupines (yet) but I did use it to kill my Thanksgiving turkeys. I could only get within 3 feet of them and I was running out of time!

It sounds like you, TW, do not have a good grasp of the available options yet, nor any idea which would be best for you. Tough place to be in. If I were you I might go find out what other locals use to protect themselves, maybe go 'round for tea or coffee (a batch of cookies helps). Then, with more information on what works and how and why, you'll likely have a much better idea what would be best for you.

It was my neighbor who said "get a shotgun" and she is a mature, kind person. I'm not sure why this is so controversial or why anyone would be negative. The topic isn't about gun control or ownership it is simply your advice on how to protect your homestead. I'm a little shocked that there are such intense feelings about this. No one has much to say about surveillance? or is that a different topic?

Well, I am always dismayed and upset at the level of fear that is out there. Maybe I am blessed to live in a really special place, but I don't think my situation is that uncommon...i'm homesteading in the country and I have a great community of farm neighbours and zero concern about protecting my place, or violence or installing surveillance. I don't even have a lock on my door. IMHO this is about a sort of survivalist fantasy that seems common among those cloistered in suburbia and watching too much sensationalized television. It's a sad way of viewing the world and really it should be left behind in the city because it's not that helpful.

Having said that...yes, you do need a gun if you are homesteading. You will probably use it reluctantly, and hate having to use it, but there will be times when it's unavoidable... predators, porcupines that won't move on, terminally ill or injured livestock or pets when you are a long way from the nearest vet...etc, etc... maybe even a deer to supplement the food...and you will learn a lot about yourself and living and dying and mortality and respect...

Learn how to use it safely and teach your kids responsibly, and Always treat it like it's loaded...

A smaller hunting rifle / carbine is the gun i find most need of in a homestead situation. Shotguns are for hunting ducks...or if loaded with slugs they are an effective last resort close range defense gun if you are spending a lot of time in camp in serious bear country, they aren't that great for the applications i mentioned...

i hope you can find a quiet place to breathe some clean air and get to know your neighbours...

Theresa Whited wrote:It was my neighbor who said "get a shotgun" and she is a mature, kind person. I'm not sure why this is so controversial or why anyone would be negative. The topic isn't about gun control or ownership it is simply your advice on how to protect your homestead. I'm a little shocked that there are such intense feelings about this. No one has much to say about surveillance? or is that a different topic?

Please let me tell you where I'm coming from. I was a California Armed Guard, and my family has had more than its share of Armed Service Members and police. I'm active in the NRA and keep an eye on stats, both from the US and worldwide. This is what I think.

Firearms are a hotbutton topic, no matter what country you're in. They are expressly made to kill. Killing is emotional. So people are emotional about their stands on firearms, whether it's panicked avoidance, obssessive need to own, something inbetween, or what-have-you. So I think that this is a subject where a little emotion is totally excusable, even understandable.

* Firearms are a good choice if you think you can kill someone. If you can't, don't have them on your property because it is possible they could be seized and used on you. I would hesitate to have 2 feet of rifle or shotgun for use inside the home because, while defensive and imposing, tight quarters maneuvering is difficult with such a large weapon.
** If you do get a gun, do not bring it home, stick it in a drawer, and forget it until you think you have a problem. Take it to the Range and fire it A LOT. A LOT A LOT. Get used to it. Revolvers are better for occasional, emergency use because you can leave them loaded without damage, such as can occur to an automatic or semiautomatic's clip mechanism.
* Surveillance is good but expensive because you have to pay someone else to watch your place.
* LTL options are excellent if you know how to use them.
** Pepper spray drifts in any kind of breeze, and if you're panicked and fire into the wind, it's very unpredictable. Kind of like trying to use a skunk!
** Baseball bats are good.
** We have Shinai (bamboo practice swords) by all the doors just in case, because someone charging out with a weapon that looks like three feet of razorblade is not condusive to a smooth robbery.
* Dogs are one of the best options! They make great rodent-killers, means you can put a good sign up that will make intruders want to go elsewhere, and they're good friends. Make sure you can control your dog! Something medium-sized or bigger, like a Australian Blue Heeler (30 - 40 lbs) can actually stop an intruder. Train to the word "attack", though you may have to get an expert for this.
* Take a self-defense class.
* Keyring pushknives can be on your keyring for emergencies. They are an ince of sharp "back off" to hold safely between your knuckles. If you can punch, you can use them.

Whatever you feel is the best for you, make sure you are familiar and comfortable with it. We have one dog (so far), lots of BEWARE OF DOG signs, and use shinai for deterrant purposes... so far have only had to use that on deer.

Here's a thread that focuses on guns as tools: https://permies.com/forums/posts/list/40/2798#91505
Most country people in NZ have guns for shooting dinner. Generally a .22 and a .303. Sometimes a shotgun if there's a duck hunter in the household.
We have very different legal and philosophical attitudes toward gun-control over here.

Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: Having said that...yes, you do need a gun if you are homesteading. You will probably use it reluctantly, and hate having to use it, but there will be times when it's unavoidable... predators, porcupines that won't move on, terminally ill or injured livestock or pets when you are a long way from the nearest vet...etc, etc... maybe even a deer to supplement the food...and you will learn a lot about yourself and living and dying and mortality and respect...

Learn how to use it safely and teach your kids responsibly, and Always treat it like it's loaded...

I was thinking about this too. It is said that if you have livestock, you will have dead stock. We have had to put down a couple of goats and I don't think we could have done it without a firearm. We don't have ours for protection, they are unloaded and not readily available. We slaughter our own meat which was our primary reason for buying them. We started with a 22 handgun and then had to buy a rifle when my husband shot a pig who did not go down but was clearly in pain. We couldn't get close to him so now we have a rifle as well.

I also wanted a rifle because we have had several situations with dogs going after our chickens and foxes as well. We haven't had to shoot a dog so far, and I hope we never do.