If I had known that earlier

hi all

Sure we are after what is right , we want to save time and effort we want to help each other . We are in fact doing that in a way or the other . soil is one the most important things in what we are doing , we want it to be better, we want to grow better things , ext
there was a time when each one of us said "that is great , I wish I had known that thing earlier " or "had I known it some years ago ,ooHHH"

Lets say I heard about that thing , and did tried it on , on my soil or with my plants and it worked ,or I discover that thing. I saw it with my own eyes there is not any doubt about it , in fact I belive in it now ,
or here is something that is great if I were not that good person I would have kept for my self and my beloved ones as a secret

For exampel
I Mostafa , did try hugelkulture with certain trees in a certain place and it worked out fine , so fine , and here are the details ................
,and I did try to put stones near some plant and somehow it helped that plant , and it is better than the others ,and here is what happened ...........................

so come on lets share what we believe in what we saw with our own eyes ,

. come on lets start


if this idea could be reformed and manged by skillful person that would be great[/b]



thank you people ,

Hello, Mostafa, I like this idea!
We have always grown organically and I definitely had permaculture inclinations before I ever heard the word. Ideas like 'chop and drop' and 'dynamic accumulators' made so much sense once I understood them...I am seeing the results these last several years (I think) of allowing more and more natural diversity in my growing areas, curley dock, dead nettle, chickweed, dandelion, lambs quarters, yarrow, evening primrose, vetches, clovers, and more and more 'volunteer ' persimmon trees and sumac...and I appreciate the fact that they appear with no input from me. I am realizing that 'full sun' is NOT the necessity I thought it was...my garden areas are feeling cozier and are becoming even more productive. So, in hindsite:), I wish I had followed more of a wait and see path towards removing what I considered weeds from the places we grow food. We recognized wild edibles and medicinals and plants that attract beneficial insects but not their huge benefit among our fruit trees and vegetables....and of course, I wish I had planted more fruit trees ten years ago.

Blueberries REALLY don't like alkaline soil. I tried amending with peat moss, pine needles. Still killed them all. Then I bought a pH pen and started measuring pH. It turns out I have soil that measures 8.3. Since this is a log scale, and since blueberries like it below pH 5.5, that's almost 1000 times too alkaline.

Now that I have added ag sulphur several times over a year, I have seen the pH get down to workable levels, in the 6 or below range. It also turns out that my EBH (Edible Blue Honeysuckle/Honeyberry) and grapes look way better too.


pH pens are cheap, and effective. Way more accurate than the "soil test" kits for garden soil, or litmus paper.


Here is a typical twelve dollar one from ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pen-Type-ph009-pH-Meter-Digital-water-Tester-Hydro-pool-plant-alkalinity-acidity-/251097165147?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a768ead5b


I spent a little more for a (hopefully) more durable pen.

http://www.amazon.com/Extech-PH50-Waterproof-pH-Pen/dp/B0012VYM32/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370879887&sr=8-2&keywords=waterproof+pH+pen


You don't know what you don't know, as far as soil pH goes. And some plants really need certain ranges to thrive.


troy

I would say,

bury wood below grade in the desert.

Mix in manured biochar now, so you dont have to redig and kill your fungi later.

Bury a piece of dripline with 1/16" holes drilled every foot when you put in buried wood. Allows you to water a bit during drought, without watering the surface weeds....

I have very limited space, and most of my fruit trees are espaliered. With appropriate pruning/training, you can fit a lot of trees in a small area.
My trees are only three years old and this is the first year I've left fruit on. I thinned fruit drastically: at least two apples off for every one I left.
I've tried to select apples so that I have 'good keepers' for long storage as well as varieties for fresh eating. 'Sturmer' keeps for ages, and the flavour improves with time.

I am a bet disappointed ,

I was expecting more than that , successful stories about what you tried and worked out very well.
I was expecting more experienced people to come along and tell what they saw with their own eyes beyond the shadow of doubt
things that have been found out to make life not really the same , that would make other come off their own track and take or try another

mostafa ismail wrote:I am a bet disappointed ,

I was expecting more than that , successful stories about what you tried and worked out very well.
I was expecting more experienced people to come along and tell what they saw with their own eyes beyond the shadow of doubt
things that have been found out to make life not really the same , that would make other come off their own track and take or try another

Ok. Mostafa I will take up your challenge. This is my ramblings as a commercial grower experimenting over the years trying to grow crops on a windswept hilltop on clay soil and an underlying ph of 4 to 5. I have developed systems to overcome both the exposed nature of my site and the poor soil conditions. Starting with the windswept site I initially installed a poly tunnel to grow vegs in well actually 3 tunnels each with a different type of plastic for a specific purpose. Ie clear for seedlings. UV altered to inhibit pest suitable for vegs that do not need to be pollinated and a opaque tunnel which retains the heat for veg requiring pollination. This still left a problem of cool vegs going to seed in the hot tunnels but not growing in open ground due to the high winds. I solved the problem by building another tunnel but this time covered it in 75 per cent shade netting. The results where excellent. Unfortunately most of this success had been achieved at the expense of imported compost due to the soil being so acid. After purchasing John Seymours excellent book on the deep bed method I realised I had the solution to my poor soil.. To be continued

mostafa ismail wrote:I am a bet disappointed , was expecting more than that , successful stories about what you tried and worked out very well.
I was expecting more experienced people to come along and tell what they saw with their own eyes beyond the shadow of doubt
things that have been found out to make life not really the same , that would make other come off their own track and take or try another

Oops, lost track of things...this is the soil, not the apple forum...
Mostafa, I can tell you what I've seen in my environment: add organic matter. Lots of it. Whenever you can.
That's all I got.

r john wrote:

mostafa ismail wrote:I am a bet disappointed ,

I was expecting more than that , successful stories about what you tried and worked out very well.
I was expecting more experienced people to come along and tell what they saw with their own eyes beyond the shadow of doubt
things that have been found out to make life not really the same , that would make other come off their own track and take or try another

Ok. Mostafa I will take up your challenge. This is my ramblings as a commercial grower experimenting over the years trying to grow crops on a windswept hilltop on clay soil and an underlying ph of 4 to 5. I have developed systems to overcome both the exposed nature of my site and the poor soil conditions. Starting with the windswept site I initially installed a poly tunnel to grow vegs in well actually 3 tunnels each with a different type of plastic for a specific purpose. Ie clear for seedlings. UV altered to inhibit pest suitable for vegs that do not need to be pollinated and a opaque tunnel which retains the heat for veg requiring pollination. This still left a problem of cool vegs going to seed in the hot tunnels but not growing in open ground due to the high winds. I solved the problem by building another tunnel but this time covered it in 75 per cent shade netting. The results where excellent. Unfortunately most of this success had been achieved at the expense of imported compost due to the soil being so acid. After purchasing John Seymours excellent book on the deep bed method I realised I had the solution to my poor soil.. To be continued

Continuing the ramblings.

Armed with John Seymours book I converted to deep bed cultivation but with a twist using the cloche he described in his book but covered in shade cloth to protect from high winds,butterfly's and rabbits the results have been excellent. Normal crop rotation has been followed but my low ph has been resolved by the application of wood ash instead of lime. As all our cooking and heating is supplied by wood the incorporation of the dry wood ash seemed an excellent use of this resource. The downside of improving the soil was that the weeds grew far better. Initially I reduced the problem by using carpet underlay between my rows of vegetables leaving only the actual row to weed. At the same time I was developing my tomato growing techniques having discovered ring culture using a ring of growing media on top of a gravel bed. The growing media needed to be weed free so I invested in a soil pasteuriser so that recycled compost could be used without the fear of weeds. Being successful with tomatoes I applied the same technique across all the vegs in the polytunnels using extra deep plant pots again with excellent results. Having seen how well the technique worked i wondered whether I could apply the same technique for my field crops. Having read how the Victorian plant collectors could gather plants from the 4 corners of the world and keep them alive for months at a time using bottle gardens i wondered whether the same technique could be used with modern materials. I now garden using IBC containers and ring culture as the easiest method of veg production.

I think that this forum is full of examples of trials and errors, so that we can learn faster by learning from others mistakes!!!

The idea is sure good.
but what is great to a climate is unadapted to another one.

So here is the idea I have for long:
I would love to call for people having similar climates, and form teams.
I already know some part of earth with a climate very close to mine.

then, in such groups, sure that tips can be more accurate and helpful.
It would also help to exchange seeds.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:I would love to call for people having similar climates, and form teams.

Who wants to be on 'team temperate'?
I'm not very knowlegeable about climatic zones but I'm thinking the UK, Tasmania, maybe the Seattle area. Where else?

Xisca Nicolas wrote: in such groups...tips can be more accurate and helpful. It would also help to exchange seeds.

You're on! I have lots of runner bean seed. I know it as 'Georges' bean', but it's one of those heirlooms with millions of local names.
Perennial in my climate, it long pods for green beans, and the dried beans are delicious fat and white.

Most seed xchanges ask for a 'SASE' (self addressed stamped envelope), but I'm not sure how this international exchange business works.
From what I can see, seeds are generall considered ok to post, but...

You are temperate coastal windy! A temperate continental would be different.
Leila, I think that you do not need to read the list of what I would have like to know earlier.
I think it will not help you because of your climate...

Well, seed exchange is not crucial in the idea that led to this interest I have.
(though it might be more important than we think about, not sure)

In my case, I have found that my climate looks like southern California, but not Florida because I have winter rain!
I have asked for a new forum about climates...
https://permies.com/t/26088/tnk/climate-forum

Around the world, I feel similar to some parts of South Africa, western Australia.
More difficult to situate what latitude and altitude of Chile would correspond more...
And I still have to virtually explore India!

So, in the "If I had known that earlier" topic, I would answer:

"When I read that a tree comes from southern Asia, I think monsoon and wet and I do not loose time in reading more!"
"In my climate, I should sow in autumn what I used to sow in spring."
(well no, actually I have 2 years in 1 because there are 2 springs!)
" Chia will flower only with short days, so in october, and I will not harvest anything good..."
"low beds will keep water better than raised bed..."
"A nice cool wind is nice for working outside, but dries the garden, so I need some low hedge protection from this sea wind"
"temps are not high here, but the sun is! Hedges do not provide the kind of shade veggies need, because I need it just above."
"Not all greyish leaves are adapted to the sun and I have moved my feijoa to some shade."
"Tall trees certainly like full sun. Well, may be not all. Let's look if they originate from deep valleys."
"Little trees can do better in the shade, because they used to live under the tall trees. Well, just check out first if they came or not from a place where they were the tallest tree!!!"
"If you still believe that lizards eat insects, then you can spend a lot of time answering this question "what is this slug that eat my seedlings without leaving any track?" This is true in a dry place. So, also if you do not want them to eat your tomatoes, just put some water so that lizards can drink."
"I must also give water to rats, so that they do not have to help themselves. Let's save them from the job of gnawing the plastic pipe!"

And, if I had known before that a steep land would help reducing my joint and muscle pains, I would have come here earlier!
Consider doing irregular stairs, regularity and same shocks in the body is what is damaging.
Just the reverse of what I would have thought...

Troy Rhodes wrote:

pH pens are cheap, and effective. Way more accurate than the "soil test" kits for garden soil, or litmus paper.


Here is a typical twelve dollar one from ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pen-Type-ph009-pH-Meter-Digital-water-Tester-Hydro-pool-plant-alkalinity-acidity-/251097165147?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a768ead5b


I spent a little more for a (hopefully) more durable pen.

http://www.amazon.com/Extech-PH50-Waterproof-pH-Pen/dp/B0012VYM32/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370879887&sr=8-2&keywords=waterproof+pH+pen


You don't know what you don't know, as far as soil pH goes. And some plants really need certain ranges to thrive.


troy

What is the range of these pens? Will they measure down as low as ph 2-4??

I wish I had known about transplant disease in fruit trees before I killed so many by trying to put them in the same areas..

peach family and apple family have transplant disease..they will not grow well where other peach famly or apple family has grown before or grows nearby..their roots will attack each other. they seem to do better if planted at the same time..but if they are planted once the other peach or apple has already been established the smaller tree will generally suffer and die.

I lost so many peach, plum and apple trees that way..

now when I lose a tree, I plant somethinig from another family entirely where it was growing..to save the heartache and expense

I'm 29, i don't have earth shattering wisdom for you but I AM purchasing my first tractor with a high lift from a friend. I'm finally ready for it. I'm so happy I didn't get a machine when I wanted one. I started as a gardener getting excited about every little drama, the cucumber beetle orgies, fuhgin quackgrass, the horn worms! No fumes, no noise, working with a hand tools, shovels, digging forks, carts, and wheel barrels. I think Plato said that no one is really ready for Socrates' teachings until they are age thirty and I'm not sure if anybody should have a machine til then either. Instead of ripping up ground I've been reading Fukuoka, and Mollison, jacke, Jeavons, Coleman, Holtzer, Muir, and manuals on organic gardening. Oh and the people i have met:) while making the connections between permaculture practices and civil rights, freedom, spirituality, and FUN! Now, I feel connected to these people and their ideas through a shared mission. I have children and a deep impetus for helping future earthlings to get to experience what we have had the great fortune to experience. So now I have a machine to help build our formerly strip-mined soils with lots of compost generated from many tons of food waste and leaves. So at nearly thirty years old, I'm happy to have realized that the work of building the soil with patience starts with building up our life experience.

If I knew when I became a homeowner that the primary function of weedblock was to prevent the spread of nutrients from the organic top layer to the hyper-compacted crap I have below I wouldn't have spread it all over the place in a vain attempt to control my yard with force.

This reality recently came full focus to me as I've been trying to reclaim my yard for a more fruitful purpose (hey yo!). A few years ago we sheet mulched a section of our yard and I recently started planting in it. There is beautiful soil all the way down to the first layer of weedblock and then, BAM! ugly dirt. The few places where I have allowed the mulch to compost have a much more gradual degradation. Now I'm stuck trying to remove or perforate that layer in the places I had it installed.

See sig.