Heidi White

Gail,

Thanks for the reply! Yes, we're well aware of Yestermorrow. Their prices tend to be somewhat prohibitively expensive so that's why we thought of seeing what else we might be able to find.

Heidi

Hello All! I hope this is the right forum for this inquiry. I am representing a Luddite friend who has a few pieces of land in North/Central VT (Johnson). One of his holdings is a nice 3.5 acre property with good timber possibilities. He is thinking of putting up a log cabin on the site, but has little experience with this particular building method. He thought it might benefit others if someone would be interested in leading a workshop on this skill. He would be willing to negotiate logistics such as pricing/accommodations in person or over the phone. I can provide contact info to any interested parties via PM.

Thanks so much for visiting this thread

Heidi

Wyll, there actually is a consensus and I'm sorry I didn't post information about it sooner:

http://www.vegansociety.com/about/history.aspx

"Vegan" is a term that was coined by a Brit named Donald Watson in 1944. When he created the term he was very explicit about what vegan meant: "No use of animals whatsoever."

Again, it's an ideology or creed, not a diet. That's all I'm defending. It may seem like splitting hairs over semantics, but for all of us ideological vegans who are truly passionate, we take a lot of pride in the word

Chris, yes Francione is a bit "radical." Radical actually originally means, "getting to the root of something" and I think that's just what he does. It's only recently that word has been hijacked and come to have its negative connotations. I think it is important to explore these issues, because so many people take animal use for granted. I, for one, could never kill another animal or another human (even if my life depended on it) because doing so would be tantamount to saying that my life matters more than the life of another (when I don't think it does--we all have equal value and equal claim to a right to life). There's a side of me that wants to honor everyone's dietary choices, but I also find that difficult because reducing the eating of animals and their products to a "lifestyle choice" ignores the fact that making that choice creates a victim.

But my heart goes out to you, because only two years ago I was the most carnivorous person ever. I used to clean chicken bones clean and I liked rare steaks. I had several anti-veg rants and I would tell everyone quite emphatically that you would never see me give up meat. But that's because I was blinding myself to what it really was. Now I look at meat and all I see is the rotting flesh of someone who was once alive and was killed for someone else's appetite. But it took me a long time to realize that. My biggest regret is that I didn't realize it sooner.

Brian,

The fruiting bodies were there after I got back from my trip and I'm pretty sure no one paid gave them any care while I was gone for those five days which is why I was pleasantly surprised to find them there. I'd be interested in finding out how I can produce some mushrooms in the tray system I have set up. I've seen pictures of it online but perhaps I have too much air circulation/not enough humidity for them to be truly happy. The tray is barely covered at this point (and I know oysters are usually grown in those plastic bags, but my source told me standing up the cardboard roll and covering it with plastic wrap would work just fine after the initial colonization and subsequent refrigerator shocking. It was difficult to stand my roll up, though, as the bottom was holding my spawn and was mashed up and uneven...

As of now there's only cardboard and the hydroponic growing mat in the tray...I've considered adding coffee or wood shavings to try and give the mycelium more food. Been watching it closely and the whole system seems to be unchanged for the past several days. I haven't used a direct lightbulb (don't have one that's easily accessible for the mushrooms and trying to minimize expenditures at the moment)...I was under the impression that they would do well under indirect sunlight, or is the lightbulb intended to produce heat and humidity? I could move it back into the wood burning stove room (toasty compared to the rest of the house) and cover it much more tightly with the plastic...

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Those quotes are general ones used by the vegan movement and have no specific provenance. I'm going to refer to another quote I found on a general vegan site: "If you are thinking to yourself, "But I'm a vegan for health reasons" or "I'm a vegan for environmental reasons," read on. Unlike the word vegetarian, the word vegan specifically implies moral concern for animals, and this concern extends to all areas of life, not just diet. If you do not believe in animal equality, please consider referring to yourself as someone who doesn't eat animal products, as one who follows a plant-based diet, or as one who follows a vegan diet. Or, continue to educate yourself about veganism, and perhaps you will choose to practice veganism. Additionally, anyone who eats honey, yet refers to herself as a vegan, makes life difficult for other vegans--it's like having someone who eats fish and calls herself a vegetarian. When a vegetarian comes along, it is much harder for her to explain that fish is not acceptable for vegetarians."

And that's the distinction I wanted to make. Veganism is an ideology/creed. Not a diet. Jains are indeed a very strict lot and their practices are based on their own spiritually-based beliefs. Vegans make a distinction based on sentience. If we can perceive that a being is capable of feeling, they are capable of suffering. Fermented foods are not off the table for us because nothing has shown us yet that microbes are sentient. And, indeed, it's impossible not to ingest microbes (every time you swallow your own saliva you get a healthy helping).

I'd love to offer more of my own words in responding to your really lengthy and definitely well thought out response, but I'm a little short on time at present. I'll instead refer you to one of my favorite animal rights writers and activists. I think he'd say it better than I would anyway: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/faqs/

This is a reply to some of the other responses I skimmed:

Why honey isn't vegan: http://vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

That said, I do know a vegan who calls himself a bee guardian--he gives them a home, they do their bee thing, and he benefits from yummy food. He does not take their honey...this same person also is active in vermiculture. Not sure collecting worm castings is exploitation...unless others more hardcore than myself have a really good argument for that--I would love to hear it so I could reconsider my position

Well hi! Look at that! A whole forum for vegans

I am going to get super stickler-y here, though.

"Animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, use for entertainment, or abuse in any way."

"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.”

If you believe this, you are vegan. If you don't believe this, but eat a "vegan diet" then you are a not a vegan but a "plant-based eater." Vegan is a heartplace. An ideology. It's not about perfection, but it is about producing as little harm and reducing animal exploitation as much as possible. In the same way that you can't say "I'm a Christian" and not believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, you can't say you're a vegan and still endorse animal use or exploitation. I applaud anyone who eats a plant-based diet and takes steps to reduce harm and suffering of sentient beings, but words mean things.

There is a small movement of Veganic Permaculturists in the world. Some also refer to it as "Stock-Free Farming." I bought a book (Growing Green: http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Green-Animal-Free-Organic-Techniques/dp/1933392495/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364978490&sr=8-1&keywords=growing+green) on it, and it's some great stuff. Looks like it overlaps with some of Fukuoka's methods (though he did have chickens). I think there are likely very effective ways to practice permaculture without using any animals to do it (but here I'm referring to the keeping of farm animals for manure, etc. This doesn't include animals that are a natural part of the ecosystem and simply passing in and out of a given system). I'm also undecided as to whether or not it isn't acceptable to have some rescue animals on a farm without using them for secretions or eggs, etc. But I think the inputs needed would be too much of a burden to be ideally sustainable and the purpose of the farm would have to be as a sanctuary, which doesn't seem practical from a permaculture standpoint (the solution: stop breeding animals for human use).

These are just some of the ideas I've been mulling over for awhile now, and now I have a forum in which to present them. Thanks

I'm in an herbalism program right now and got this tidbit recently: for deep and/or puncture wounds, use a tincture of St John's Wort--just squirt it in there like a wash. Good stuff.

Went to a workshop on mushrooms where I was given some lovely oyster spawn and directions on how to inoculate rolled up cardboard. I pasteurized the cardboard, added a little bit of spawn (3/4 of it still sleeping in the fridge). Got a nice mycelium web inside the cardboard with not TOO much growing on the outside after two weeks in a plastic vented bag in dark drawer near the wood stove (admittedly, the bag was a little too small for the cardboard roll I made). After two weeks in the warm darkness, I fridged it for 24 hours and moved it to a shelf in my room. I misted it daily with water and kept it partially covered with plastic wrap on a plate (per the instructions I was given). Left for five days for a trip and had two little cute fruiting bodies. But after this, nothing. I was able to maintain those two fruting bodies for a couple weeks, but no more have popped up. I have tried to change some conditions by shredding the cardboard and moving it to a tray I used to use for growing wheatgrass (I put an unused hydroponic growing mat in there as well and there's a nice little mycelium web interspersed throughout now). It's now been over two weeks since I moved to the tray. Those original fruits have all but withered and haven't seen results since then...have been considering throwing more food (pastuerized shavings or coffee) into the tray since the cardboard seems to be underwhelming. I tried moving the tray into the basement at night and the mushrooms seemed to like that, but I heard they need some light so I took them out during the day. I live in Vermont so humidity is pretty low at the moment and the house is fairly cool (60ish degrees) except in the kitchen where we keep the wood stove.

Thoughts?

Hi Jude! It's Heidi! Just replying to this so I can follow any replies. I hope you find someone who can help out. Still really want to do this! I have a friend in my herbalism school who runs a permaculture farm with her partner near where I live in Vermont. I'll ask her if she has any ideas. I'm also meeting with another friend Thurs to talk about his own plans to start an edible forest garden pretty close to me so I'll talk to him about this too. Best of luck!