Thomas Armstrong

I’m blown away by your knowledge redhawk - I’ll be getting started on your work on soil next week during the coming ng rains when I can’t work

My last question for the time being is this:

Without nitrogen inputs (such as fertiliser), how will the lawn get its nitrogen? I understand mycorrhizal fungi can make mineral phosphorus and potassium available to plants, but I’m not sure how soil microbes and fungi make nitrogen available to non-nitrogen fixing plants.

If I was to make ‘perma-lawns’ for eco conscious businesses and residencies, I would include clover and the likes, but for monoculture lawns, even if they need far less nitrogen fertiliser than is traditionally though, I’d still assume that they require some nitrogen inputs - even if I’m mulching he clippings back into the lawn some of that nitrogen will be lost and need replacing...

Would fish hydrosylate with its proteins and amino acids be better than urine do you think? That way they get broken down by the microbes into nitrogen for the lawn - possibly buffering any problems caused by adding plant available nitrogen. I really don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s just a thought that occurred to me 😬

Thank you so much for your time 🙂

Thanks mate

Nah I haven’t but it looks pretty awesome and I will check it out.

I also had another question arise today if someone wants to fill me in please - if urine will cause salt accumulation in soil, won’t it do the same thing to compost? Minus the nitrogen which is lost in the composting process?

I’m eager to learn this is super interesting and I’m finding organic gardening is so much more enjoyable as a business and an individual

That gives me confidence applying the stuff heavily diluted then 😁

Don’t shoot me down permies, but when clients have clover in their mono-lawns, I spot treat with extra diluted-urine to add nitrogen and discourage the clover and encourage the lawn - better than herbicides - deal with the problem (low nitrogen) and not the symptom (clover). If I was to give people a “permalawn” it would be evenly laced with microclover, and maaaaybe dandelions depending on their preferences (and if you can even buy dandelion seeds) 🙂

A second reply to redhawk - I know that mycorrhizal fungi will make locked up mineral potassium and phosphorus available to plants, and I know that my seaweed, compost tea, and molasses tonic will help with trace elements and microbes.

You’ve got me extremely excited about microbes meeting the nitrogen needs of the lawns though - especially hearing about those golf courses seeing as these lawns are mostly going to be monocultures without clover being cut to </=4inches (with gold and sporting fields often being cut to around 1-1.5”).

Oh yeah it will certainly promote vibrant and fast green growth - I’m just worried about how to mitigate salt accumulation and soil acidification 😫

You’re quite lucky to be honest that your dogs concentrated wee in the same spot over and over again hasn’t burned a hole in the lawn - but I’m always happy to hear about people’s beautiful lawns 😁

That might not make me too popular in the world of permaculture but imagine a world without art or music! That’s my excuse for ornamental horticulture 🤣

Thanks again guys

I had NO idea that non-nitrogen fixing plants could fix nitrogen from the air or even get it from bacteria without those special nodules on their roots - I know that with a poly culture complete with nitrogen fixers this can be achieved but I really didn’t think a lawn could work this way?

Would salt accumulation be negated with regular/semi-regular deep watering, as well as low application rates diluted to a rate of 1:10?

Also, in theory, would colonising the urine with lactobaccilus prevent other microbes from colonising? Competition and the likes? It makes sense that lactobaccilus wouldn’t kill certain pathogens.

Thanks for your reply redhawk
Would you mind helping me to understand how somethings work please?

I understand that urea is chemically different to ammonia, but I was under the impression that urea mostly broke down into ammonia (but you’ve let me know it mostly stays as urea), and was wondering how soil and plants use both urea and ammonia differently (as I have heard urea is a far better nitrogen source than ammonia, ammonium nitrate, ammonium Sunday’s, and ammonium chloride) - you can buy synthetic urea for nitrogen fertiliser as well as older fashioned ammonium nitrate, however I understand that too much nitrogen fertiliser, if not used by the plants, will acidify the soil (which I don’t want to have to try and deal with by adding huge amounts of calcium or magnesium).

Could you kindly explain how urea and ammonia are used by plants and what they do to soil, particularly any differences between them

Also, could you please tell me about how fermented urine is different? I’ve heard fermenting the urine prevents much of the urea from turning into ammonia, and am curious to know how soil and plants will use the fermented urine differently - does it acidify the soil more than other nitrogen sources. (Does it lose nitrogen when fermented, does fermenting it with lacto bacillus prevent it from being overrun by pathogens etc).

When it comes to compost, my main concern is the lack of nitrogen when the compost and compost tea is fully matured - I understand the micronutrients, the humic acid, and potentially the microbes (I’ve heard conflicting reports about whether these microbes actually survive long after being applied) are beneficial, and I plan on using compost tea, liquid seaweed, and liquid and fermented homemade fish fertiliser (cold blended, fermented, and strained made from the throw away skeletons and guts of local fish shops), but I just need the higher nitrogen of urea for lawns - and I’ve heard that urea is much better than ammonia and other nitrogen sources. I understand I’d have to use less nitrogen, while diluting it, and applying every few weeks to keep it safe for soil health (and please correct me if I am wrong).

Our suburban lawns in Australia aren’t too large, and I will have enough for between 4 and 8 thousand square meters per year, and it’s really as easily as filling a bucket and setting up a siphon system with their sprinklers (but I want to ferment everything to prevent pathogens), and as for other clients who get in last - provided they pay for the organic fertilisers and soil conditioners, I will apply for free on certain premium plans

Hi guys, I’m aware there are lots of threads on urine for the veggie gardens and seedlings here, but I’m actually looking to use it in commercial organic lawn care.

I understand the high nitrogen content can burn lawns if not well diluted and watered in, and I welcome any feedback regarding salt accumulation with constant application and how regular watering will counter this...

But my main question is regarding the better form of urine to use for lawn/soil food, and why? (Nitrogen content, plant availability, and potential harm to soil life - seeing as worms, bacteria, and mycorrhizal fungi are super important for healthy and organic lawns).

I have heard that the ammonia that urea breaks down into isn’t great for gardens? If this is because it damages soil life and drastically lowers PH, fair enough. But if this is just because the nitrogen because more readily available, that would be great for me - the more nitrogen the better - I’d just dilute it to keep the lawn healthy while being able to stretch the concentrate further

Also, I’m wondering what people’s thoughts are regarding soil PH in an organic lawn fertilised with fresh vs lacto fermented vs stale (ammonia) urine, and some reasonable organic and safe ways to counter acidifying the soil (lime, homemade seaweed tonic) and salt accumulation.

I’m planning on mixing the urine however it is prepared with homemade liquid seaweed, molasses, compost tea, weed/clipping tea, and cold blended homemade fish fertiliser.

I’m using ~1L urine per 100m2, every 4 weeks during our Aussie growing season (Sep - May - upside down I know).  

Salt accumulation, PH, nitrogen availability (no point having a higher N product that can’t be used by soil/lawn) and soil life are my main areas of concern.

(All of this can be made for free, and offered to customers on premium plans for free with a siphon, bucket, and their existing fertiliser system - I’ve had success with fresh urine, compost tea, and a product called seasol which is an Aussie liquid seaweed tonic).

Please tell me everything you know because this stuff is super interesting - I know lots of people don’t like lawns because they take up valuable food space - but imagine a world without art and music, or food without herbs and spices - ornamental gardening has its place and us landscapers can use organic and holistic practises to promote soil and pollinator life while applying permaculture principles (reusing waste and local materials as garden inputs) 🙂🙂🙂