Yana Samir

Thank for such a detailed response

shauna carr wrote:
I'm not certain some of my growing experiences would also work in your area, but I will pass on what I've experienced, see if it will help. I live in a slightly cooler area - 37-43C is the common temp during summers, but can go up to 47C every once in a while. Winters a few degrees cooler, often little to no water then, and while mid-summer we get some monsoon rains, the crops have to survive the hotter 'dry' summer month before that, so a lot of folks here have that 'let it go dormant during the hottest season' mindset as well (although then there is planting just after it, when rain comes.

So, to answer your questions:
1) Sunflowers have worked well as shade here - I choose some local varieties that a local conservation group sells that grow very tall, and are more heat adapted, but they die in the summer heat, so I have shade left over from them.

Corn is the same, but needs more water. But a row of corn does well for providing shade as well. I also use some heat adapted varieties of these.

Have used small bamboo/wood poles to make a tripod kind of shape and grown heat adapted beans (tepary ones, around here) over the poles to provide extra shade.

amaranth is common here as well, although I don't use it as much so I'm not sure if it might have a bit more of a 'choking out' issue with other plants.

Also, while not a specific plant, a technique to help provide shade has been to plant things too close together. For example, tomatoes. Planting bush tomatoes (indeterminate) really close together, so they are growing into each other, ends up making this much denser planted area within the bushes. So while the outside fries and turns brown, it leaves this inner area that is cooler and a bit more humid, a little micro-ecosystem, and can stay green and still give tomatoes for longer. Some years, it means I can keep the tomatoes alive through the summer, where they will start producing again after the heat ebbs a bit. But some years, it just makes it last longer than it normally would, is all.  Again, I tend to use some local varieties that are desert adapted (we have a local library that has a 'seed library' where people can donate seeds of the garden plants that produced. They are trying to build up a collection of desert adapted varieties, and so far, seems to be working. )

2)
Mexican yellowshow  (Amoreuxia palmatifida ) - I love this particular plant. They are small herbaceous bushes that only poke green above the ground when it is over 37C and they get a little water. The leaves are mild and edible (raw or cooked), the seeds are edible (raw when tender, cooked when hard - but small seeds/beans), the flowers are edible, and if you get a big crop and can dig a few up, the root is edible as well (cooked or...dried, I think). When it starts to get cold, and they get no more water, they die back completely, so you can't even tell they are there, until it is over 37C again and they are getting some water (they are native in areas where they get between 5-12 inches of water a year, almost all of it during mid-summer).  

Asparagus has done well in my area. i planted a patch and forgot about it for a few years when that patch was abandoned, and the asparagus is still alive and grows every year.  Needs more water to be thick, but it is still kicking, anyway!

Chiltepin might be a good choice, if you can find the most heat tolerant varieties. these are small, perennial, chile pepper bushes. The chiles are small and round, sometimes only 1 cm or less in size, but most are very hot so you can use just 1-3 for an entire dish, if want only a little heat. Mine wild-seeded in my yard, but always just slightly NE of a large bush or tree, for the shade. But they do well with fairly low water and high heat.

Wolfberry or hackberry bushes- both give berries, both adapted to high heat, but both might require water during mid-summer as both are used to a monsoon season, so...not sure if they would work, you know? There are desert and non-desert varieties of hackberry bushes, but unsure about wolfberry (wolfberry tastes MUCH better though). These can also get quite large, so might do as something to give shade eventually for an entire garden patch, you know?

malabar spinach - this is a climbing vine, with leaves that are thicker, and does well in high heat. Often used here in summers because the spinach doesn't survive or goes bitter with the heat.




Some other plants for seeds or leaves that folks grow here that can be hard to grow elsewhere, that might do all right in your area (but that I don't have much experience with): sesame, safflower (sometimes see the seeds with the Spanish name, Corrales Azafrán), okra, panic grass (a native grass with a very large seed that can be harvested and eaten), chia (used for the seeds), and pignut (spanish name: Guarijio Conivari, latin: Hyptis suaveolens) (used as an herb or to make tea, seeds or leaves used).Some of these might do for shade purposes as well.

Wish I had more in terms of garden veggies, but most of the really desert adapted things here are the larger perennials, like cactus and trees.

As for publications - while this guy might not be a perfect fit, this particular youtuber lives in a very hot desert as well, so often has a lot of desert-friendly plants and advice (this video is where he's visiting another desert gardener, so you get a two for one, sort of. ^_^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHgMrprGgIY&list=PL0SCyGoq8S_eEk33zMgiOJ1Olk0StYgCG&index=3 )

I am sure there are more, but I'm blanking at the moment. I'll pop back in to add more when I think of any.

Anne Miller wrote:I found your topic in our zero replies topics.

These may not offer an answer to your question though they may offer some suggestions:

https://permies.com/t/138792/tropical-food-forest#1255864

https://permies.com/t/146443/perennial-vegetables/Desert-Perennial-Vegetables

Maybe some of our forum members can answer your queations.

Thank you

I did mention that I am in a hot arid climate. More details: I’m in the Middle East, UAE specifically. We have very little rain that falls in winter, and very irregularly (just a few times per year). A coupe of years ago we had so much rain in one day that the streets and even some houses were flooded (got more than in a day than we get in the whole year). Rain in summer is pretty much non existent (in our area at least). I’m in the city of Dubai, and in our place it hasn’t rained for two years (just got some rain recently, but we had a drought for almost two years). Other towns in the country enjoy more rain and a little more regularly. Like it can rain some place that is only 20 minutes away from where we are and not a drop for us. Summers are brutal, we have temperatures that can reach 50c and stay there for days. Winters are cool, but recent years not much. Just a few years ago the temps would drop below 10c pretty often, this year I don’t think it even dropped below 19c. Even in Dubai we have microclimates. Coastal areas are very humid, especially in summer, but in the inland (closer to the desert, around 25 kms away from the coast) it rarely gets humid, usually in August and for a short period of time. I live in the suburbs closer to the desert, so we get to enjoy cooler temperatures in winter, yet we face hotter temperatures in summer.

Hello everyone.
I am looking for information about starting a small scale permaculture nursery in a hot arid climate. I am looking for a practical information, as I have found some books about the business side of starting a nursery. I am also looking for information ok starting from seed (not everything of course, but this my preferred choice for some of the fast growing trees and plants). I want to learn what time of the year to start seeds/propagate and graft cuttings, size of pots and flats/plugs, more about grafting etc. I am looking for information for both annual and perennials, though it’s the perennials that I have trouble finding info for. For example, I want to know how asparagus plants are started from seed, a-z info, because I don’t want to import it as it’s a lengthy and complicated procedure among other things. Everywhere I read the instructions are very vague, they tell you to sow seeds, then next year plant them out in their permanent location. The most important piece information of what to do with the seedlings between starting them in small pots and planting them out is missing.
So why do I want to start a nursery? Even if it’s not going to be a big project, I still want to start it. Most fruit trees (and not only) available locally are imported. Most of the time no one will even tell you the variety name, it’s good if they tell the country it came from. Of course we have a few bigger nurseries that sell all sorts of fruits trees (even apples, cherries, plums etc) with labeled varieties, but they’re sooooo expensive and the nursery just wants to sell, that’s it. Very often these saplings/young tees are sold with a rootball that has native soil attached to it (especially if it’s clay). These types of tress/plants have a really hard time adapting to our soils and climate, some just die with the onset of summer. I have spent thousands on plants, and lost a good majority of them. So I want to not only start a business, I want to experiment and grow locally adapted trees and plants.
So I am looking for any info that would be helpful: books, ebooks, other publications, videos, even courses.

Hello everyone. Please forgive my long post in advance.
I live in a very hot climate where it regularly gets around 48-50c in summers with no rain. Sometimes we don’t even have rain in winter, like was the case in the last two season. Thank God we had something this year, even if just a little. When it does rain in winter it’s usually a lot in a very short period of time, and then nothing. Temperature wise our winters are like some temperate climate summers, it can even get to 10c and on a few nights even colder, but the last few seasons it’s not too cold. When I read articles/books about perennial vegetables and fruits it’s usually geared towards the cold temperate climates. In the rare cases it mentions perennials for frost free climates it usually refers to subtropics/tropics that have lots of rain and not as high temperatures as ours, so even those veggies struggle as perennials here. When it comes to our climate, the advice is to grow perennials as annuals or omit them altogether. Either way we’re limited in what we can grow, and in the case of the former we’d have to start the seedlings yearly, or spend money to buy them, only to enjoy them for a few weeks. Well, not that it’s a bad choice, something is better than nothing, but I am not satisfied, there must be another way.  Summer growing is challenging but not impossible. With care, mulching, enough irrigation and a little shade we can grow food even in summer. A lot of it is annuals though. A lot of perennials suffer, but it’s not completely impossible to grow them too. I have just seen someone from my community post about their harvest of asparagus this year, after a 4 year wait. In another post in a neighboring country someone manages to keep their strawberries alive through summer by allowing them to go dormant. Yet others manage to keep their perennial herbs going through summer. So, in the spirit of permaculture I want to grow more perennials and I am determined, and I want to show others it’s possible. My biggest issue, is lack of information on our specific climate (most sources talk about the common annual veggies to be grown during the winter). Some people may have the info but they don’t share. I’ve bought various books but lots of info is pretty vague, or like I already mentioned talks about winter growing. I don’t mind letting the garden have a break, but in our brutal summers the soil life will die with bare soil, so it’s different from the winter break in colder climates. And I am coming close to my question. I recently saw a video of someone growing artichokes in a hot climate. The lady grows it in springs letting it go dormant in summer. While dormant she grows some annuals next to it, this provides shade and keeps the soil moist. So, one of my questions is this:
1) What are some annuals can you interplant with perennials in a hot climate in summer, that will provide shade yet won’t choke the perennial?

And my other question:
2) What are some perennial vegetables that will handle the heat by either growing through it, or going dormant and come back again after summer?

To give you a clearer picture let me give you an example of what we currently have. A vegetable that comes to mind is eggplant. It doesn’t fruit in summers, but once the weather starts cooling it starts producing again. Tomatoes don’t usually make it, they first stop producing and then die eventually. Cherry types can hang in there a little longer but eventually the heat kills them too. Kangkong will live all through summer, if adequate water is provided, but will choke anything it comes close to. Mulukhia (saluyot) loves the heat and is a possible choice to grow next to perennials.
What can you add? Any publication I should read? Videos to watch? I am always experimenting so would love to read other people’s experiences.

Hello,
I have been asked to identify this weird growth on a chikoo tree. I have never seen anything like this before.
P.S. this is in Dubai, UAE.

Thank you, yes I’m familiar with his work, he’s one of the first permaculturists I followed. I love that project and I always watch his videos. Just watched the video again and remembered that I bought carob pods last spring specifically to try and use the seeds to grow into trees. Time to plant them now that the weather is cooler (I’m not a fan of starting outdoor seeds in the heat as I lose lots of them this way, and I don’t have enough indoor space for all of my experiments), hope it works. .

Andrés Bernal wrote:Are you familiar with Geoff Lawton’s greening the desert site in Jordan? Here is a vid where he shows the species he’s using.  I believe the climatic conditions there are very similar to yours

A heavy focus on support species is a really good idea for the first years and establishment as they can create a micro climate that allows for season extensions and nursery for the most demanding productive trees later.

This is new to me, I’ll have a look. Thank you.

Nancy Reading wrote:Yana,
Have you come across The Ferns Website. They have a database of plants that covers tropical plants. I tend to just look at the temperate plants database, but you may find the tropical database of some use?

Yes, I’m growing as much as I can from seed. Neem, Moringa and a local type of mesquite do amazingly well from seed and grow well here. So finding a resource that describes these types of trees would be great. I know there must be others and am willing to try. I also feel lost because most info I find is for temperate climate trees. I prefer books because it makes it easier for me to plan, or at least a resource I could print out. I am looking for the practical details, as this where most resources lack in.
And I understand you when you feel you’re the opposite. I’m half Russian and we have a house in Russian countryside. Though the soil is very rich I have seen how lack of planning created soil erosion due to rain runoff on neighboring plots. And though some years summers are hot, others can be cold and wet. I have seen the many fungal diseases ok many trees there as well. I remember as a kid it would sometimes rain for days almost non stop. My dream is to one day convert that countryside plot of ours into a Permaculture site, but that is when I can go there more often as now I only go once every few years.

Nancy Reading wrote: I would repeat the advice on growing from seed. It will take longer, but you might have 24 seeds, 12 seedlings, three at three years old, and one tree at ten years old. But this one is the survivor that cost you less $ than one sapling and the sapling would have more risk of not making it at all.  I have the opposite problem - too wet and cold, and also the same problem - lack of shelter (from wind not sun!) and it is amazing how quickly ten years can go when you`re having fun! Some of my trees I may be lucky to see fruit, but we are talking Permaculture here!

S Bengi, thank you for such a detailed answer. I have already tried a lot of the suggestions and plants you mention, and some are totally new so I’ll be researching them (this is the kind of info I’m looking for). Lots of Mediterranean trees won’t work here because some still require winter chill (we don’t have it here, on rare occasions we may have it but not for too long) or don’t do well in our summer extremes. The issue with our summers is the scorching sun and hot nights they stay above 30c. I’m also inland, closer to the desert where it gets much hotter than the coastal areas (though we enjoy way cooler winters). The problem is sourcing trees as saplings, as importing trees/saplings into the country is not a simple yet a costly process, and you never know what will take. So I am looking for a specific to our climate resources, to minimize the errors an learn things I don’t know.  

S Bengi wrote:The heat and lack of water seems to be a big problem that you are facing. To help fix that I recommend a few things:
Mulch: this will cut down on evaporation, and it will also help you soil to capture dew, it also help with water infiltration in storm
Biochar: this makes the water in the soil more mineral dense, which makes the plant request less water
Irrigation: Under the mulch flood/drip irrigation is a great idea, weekly watering promotes deeper roots
Swales: These are depressions are filled with mulch that will hold water,
Reclaimed Water: Greywater and or Aerated Sewage/Septic water that is send under the mulch.
Soil Aeration: This helps the soil hold more water and help infiltration, and plant root dept
Palm/Legume Overstory: These plants will help shade the plants beneath them thus helping them to survive while also providing food/nutrients
Species/Cultivar Selection: Traditional Mediterranean/Desert fruit and nut crops include date palms, carob, catus pear, almonds, hazelnuts, cashew/pistachios, chestnut, pine nut, pumpkin seed, sesame seed, sunflower seed, walnut, grapes, olives, figs, pomegranates, apricots, plum/prune, citrus, persimmon, jujube, and loquat. See if you can find some local/native/wild cultivars near you, even if they aren't the best quality you can always graft. In fact you can plant alot of seeds in your garden and see which would survive the hot local conditions and then graft them if the fruit quality isn't up to your liking.

Here are a few other plants that you might like
GRAINS
• Finger Millet (Eleusine coracana)
• Fonio (Digitaria exilis and D. iburua)
• Pearl Millet (Pennisetum species)
• Sorghum (Sorghum bicolor)
• Tef (Eragrostis tef)
• Other cultivated grains (Brachiaria, Triticum, Paspalum, etc.)
• Wild grains (Echinochloa, Paspalum, etc.).

VEGETABLES
• Amaranth (Amaranthus species)
• Bambara Bean (Vigna subterranea)
• Baobab (Adansonia digitata)
• Celosia (Celosia argentea)
• Cowpea (Vigna unguiculata)
• Dika (Irvingia species)
• Eggplant (Solanum aethiopicum)
• Egusi (Citrullus lanatus)
• Enset (Ensete ventricosum)
• Lablab (Lablab purpureus)
• Locust Bean (Parkia biglobosa)
• Long Bean (Vigna unguiculata)
• Marama (Tylosema esculentum)
• Moringa (Moringa oleifera)
• Native Potatoes (Solenostemon rotundifolius and Plectranthus esculentus)
• Okra (Abelmoschus esculentus)
• Shea (Vitellaria paradoxa)
• Yambean (Sphenostylis stenocarpa)

FRUITS
• Balanites (Balanites aegyptiaca)
• Baobab (Adansonia digitata)
• Butterfruit (Dacryodes edulis)
• Carissa (Carissa species)
• Horned Melon (Cucumis metulifer)
• Kei Apple (Dovyalis caffra)
• Marula (Sclerocarya birrea)
• Melon (Cucumis melo)
• Tamarind (Tamarindus indica)
• Watermelon (Citrullus lanatus)
• Aizen (Mukheit) (Boscia species)
• Chocolate Berries (Vitex species)
• Custard Apples (Annona species)
• Gingerbread Plums (Parinari and kindred genera)
• Gumvines (Landolphia and Saba species)
• Icacina (Icacina species)
• Imbe (Garcinia livingstonii)
• Medlars (Vangueria species
• Monkey Oranges (Strychnos species)
• Star Apples (Chrysophyllum and related genera)
• Sugarplums (Uapaca species)
• Sweet Detar (Detarium senegalense)
• Tree Grapes (Lannea species)