Sam Shade

Nancy Reading wrote:

Sam Shade wrote:I want to remove the privet that crowds the south-facing perimeter of my pond, but I do value the erosion control provided by those tenacious and expansive root systems.

So this is a south facing bank? Is it the slope that makes it an erosion risk? How wet? I'm just trying to visualise the layout. I'd plant cardoon and globe artichoke in well drained areas rather than by a pond, but my summer is probably a lot cooler than yours.

Scorzonera (black salsify or Scorzonera hispanica) had very tasty leaves and dandelion like flowers on long stems - it also has a long tap root, which may be good for erosion control. Sweet Cicely (Myrrhis odorata) is a pretty umbellifera beloved of insects, maybe a bit wild looking, but has tasty sweet aniseed flavoured seeds when picked green. long spreading roots like rhubarb, but a little smaller perhaps. The leaves go well with rhubarb as it really does reduce the amount of sugar to make the rhubarb palatable. Day lillies have pretty tough root systems I believe and are also very ornamental.

It's the ridge above the short sloping bank. My concern is that without the privet roots holding the ridge in place, the rains will crumble the ridge and turn the whole area into a slope.


The soil on this ridge drains pretty well - probably because of how much gravel has made its way down from an old gravel path in the other side of the pond fence.

I've got lots of artichoke and cardoon seed handy and I've had some success with cardoon, which is the main reason I was planning to incorporate them.

Timothy Norton wrote:A potential fun and classic erosion control plant that surprisingly is edible (to me at least) would be cat-tails but they do get tall. You could use them towards the edges of the field of view? You would need to do some management of them but they produce good biomass.

Love the idea of cat tails - four-season food production!

Jill Dyer wrote:Asparagus? Grows from seed (slow) or 'crowns' - Takes 3 seasons to establish to the point of cutting spears for eating though.  Up to 1 metre tall feathery stalks when left to grow - necessary to allow some to provide energy for the next crop.  Most things leave it alone, but the berries can spread about.
Maybe rhubarb - that loves a damp/wet spot and the roots go on forever.

My only issue with asparagus is out here it grows even taller. My patch gets closer to 6 feet high and very dense.

Rhubarb would be great tho - from what I've seen it grows wider and lower.

I was thinking horseradish too tho I want to see if the greens are any good before I plant it en masse.

Anne Miller wrote:Vetiver is usually recommended for erosion control.  It has deep roots and also makes a mass.

Here are some threads to introduce vetiver for you or others:

https://permies.com/t/26103/Feedback-vetiver

https://permies.com/t/241423/Vetiver-grass-experiences-buy

Alfalfa is another good choice as the tap root can go down as far as 15 feet.

Think vetiver would survive a 10 F low in winter?

Alfalfa is a great idea.

I want to remove the privet that crowds the south-facing perimeter of my pond, but I do value the erosion control provided by those tenacious and expansive root systems. The plan I'm working on is removing the privet piecemeal and replacing it with edible perennials with long tap roots that will help prevent erosion
I've got a lot of artichoke and cardoon seed that I hope to put in there, but some variety would be nice and I was wondering what the community here would try in such an area.

A key consideration besides the criteria listed above is not looking too weedy or tall, as my parents have a direct view of this area and I don't want it to look too unkempt for them, nor do I want to obscure their view of the pond.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Megan - I have a bathtub a friend of mine gave for just such a project. I just don't know if it offers enough shelter/insulation to keep a worm population going through the worst of winter. That and my local worms aren't all that prolific. More of an occasional snack than a regular source of feed for the flock.

Timothy - dubia roaches sound intriguing. I have a spot outside near the rear chimney/garbage burner that would be relatively easy to insulate and get heat to. But if mealworms are more cold tolerant that might be the winner.

William - might try burying my little bathtub. Never considered an aquarium heater before. They effective outside of water?

If only I could figure out how to get the cockroaches in the house pipelined to the chickens.

After having a lot of fun with black soldier fly larvae this past year only for them to disappear in fall as soon as the weather cooled down, I'm hoping there are other bugs to raise for my chickens and future pigs (and eventually tilapia and bluegill if my aquaponics plans ever materialize).

The limitations I'm facing besides climate (winter lows are usually around 10 degrees F here) are the wife's firm resistance to bringing any of the bugs inside the house.

I'm willing to try greenhousing if it's not to pricy to put in place, but I'm wondering if anyone here has had success maintaining a bug/protein source for livestock through winter. Preserving summer harvests would also suit my goals if anyone has experience there.

jeramiah morgan wrote:Russian blocking 13 is supposed to be good forage through winter. I'm going to order a bunch for my new herd. Pigeon pea is their favorite right now. But they love moringa snacks too.

You think pigeon pea is worth trying in USDA zone 8a? I'd be willing to try it as an annual if the yields and growth are substantial in a single growing season or better yet as a die back perennial.

A definite yes on comfrey. The only question is whether to plant it inside or outside the paddock. My goats usually won't eat anything down to the ground so if comfrey can regularly recover from browsing it would make sense to put it inside if I can clear up enough sunlight from the shrub canopy.

Rick Valley wrote:Goats are grazers? Eh wot? Traditionally aren't rocky upland situations the norm for Caprines? I'd figure on any woody shrub-type N-fixers that are growable in yr. zone, with a diverse grass/broadleaf mix in between & below. Lots of good suggestions are posted. I really like goats, in all ways, and have enjoyed them when I was directly involved. I once saw a setup that had a rock pile that sheltered rabbits, (semi-wild) and gave the goats enough climbing to keep their hooves trim

A rabbit/goat combo habitat would be very interesting! My dad lives with me and has long planned a goat mountain of wire framed concrete and river rock - integrating my meat rabbits in the interior would be fun.

Thank you both.

Nancy Reading wrote:This is a great projeazct Sam! I hope it all can be made to work for you. I suspect you may find that the size of the forage areas for the different seasons may need to be different sizes to reflect the food availability. It would be nice if an evergreen that needed hedge pruning for good flower/fruit production would be suitable in your area, but there is still some food value in young twigs of many trees I think.
I did a pfaf search hoping that a nice evergreen legume like tagaste would pop out, and it did come up with blue leaved wattle/orange wattle (Acacia saligna) I don't know if that is a possibility perhaps? Maybe more interestingly it came up with several bamboo species including river cane. I'm not sure whether the canes would still have food value in winter though? In spring the new shoots would be close to the ground so again not so useful...

Great find thanks! Looks like there's been some research on a. saligna as goat fodder (not appropriate as sole feed but a solid supplement). Might be a good thing to put some in to break up the monotony of privet.

My own PFAF search turned up arbutus unedo, the strawberry tree, which I'm also going to try. Apparently evergreen with a beautiful and edible fruit (though opinions vary on its taste). More of a Mediterranean plant but I've had good luck with plants from that region (cardoon to name one).

Bridget Vandel wrote:Perhaps willow? I'm from the great white north so I don't know what stays green for you.

Willow (I think my variety is black willow) sheds its leaves in the mid fall here. I have a bunch of them. I'd like to use them for tree hay next winter but in the meantime I throw the goats my willow prunings so they can eat the twigs and bark.  They like it ok tho they seem to prefer slippery elm and black locust bark.