Andy Tee

Hi guys,

As permies obviously we want to reduce as much commercial products as we can. However this is a setup for a system where soaps and shampoos are being used in the showers.

There are no council rules or bylaws this far up in the countryside... the tenants do not want to build tanks or use barrels for filtration. I'm very familiar with banana circles and have put them to use before, but apprehensive for this particular setup.

One idea is to have pits with gravel, with a series of vetiver and lemongrass plantings opening up into a larger pit of carbon(saw dust) with other plants that enjoy moisture. All to be chopped and dropped. Carbon and ash to be added to the pit periodically. Sweet potatoes would make a good ground cover and a source of stem cuttings for other areas but again not ideal for consumption.

Also I know certain flowering plants like roses enjoy phosphates. The climate is dry and soil types are free draining so any moisture in the landscape is a boon.

Cheers

Phil Stevens wrote:Wayne - That's a great series of examples. I think this puts more muscle into the argument that renovation can be done without tilling.

Andy - You've already got a pasture community, albeit a somewhat diminished one. That carpet of grasses has a massive network underground, with all the roots, fungal mycelia, worm and animal burrows, worms and animals themselves, and all the bacteria digesting everything that dies. That's a huge web of fertility, a great big carbon reservoir, and you've got two basic pathways for how you can use it.

One is to grind it all up and get a massive one-off release of available nutrients as most components of the web are broken and rapidly consumed by opportunistic bacteria. The microbial flush will oxidise a large percentage of your carbon (which has most likely taken years to accumulate) and then it's gone. Whatever you plant will do great the first season, but after that it will suffer as you've spent the soil's capital and there's nothing left to earn dividends.

The other is to use one or more of the no-till methods to leverage all that capital and turn the above-ground manifestation of the soil's fertility into what you're aiming for. Try different things. If you've got cardboard, use that where you want the fastest suppression of the pasture. Wood chips will do the same and are great around trees. Oversowing and undersowing in conjunction with mowing/slashing or any form of mulch will do wonders and can scale up. Once your cover crop is up you can chop and drop it with yet another undersowing of some orchard companions.

I wouldn't rule out chisel plowing if you have real compaction problems, but unless you know that is the issue I'd avoid the disturbance.

What is the soil type and climate you're dealing with?

Climate is arid dryland with frequent droughts. Soils aren't bad but as suffered sheet erosion for decades along with overgrazing. There's a serious lack of carbon, nitrogen and organic matter. The soils are broadly classified as red calcerous.

We are thinking of running the deep plough for infiltration and then rotor in a few tonnes of organic matter (leaf litter, tree purnings and biomass) as well as trace minerals from rock dust that are known to be deficient here. While you are right in that we will disrupt the existing soil life, there is not much carbon in soil to begin with and this infusion should atleast kickstart a succession for the following years where we could look at switching to no till due to the increased infiltration.

Also there is plenty of rock and boulders... by levelling the field and getting this rock out (which then becomes a resource in other gardens and as bunds) it should justify the use of the machines.

We did some very small trial plots and the direct seeding with absolutely no prep was almost a 0% germination. The plot that the soil was turned (surface only) gave the best results in that the germination occured similar to other trial plots but the seedlings last well beyond the rains and produced some beans with just the residual moisture. They were also able to withstand the strong wind and summer heat where the other plot seedlings lost vigour and dried up soon after the rains or snapped due to the winds. The basic summary throught observation is that the plots that the sod was turned did the best, those with cardboard didn't fare as well. This is site specific tests and not to be taken as a generalisation as we have success with the cardboard method in other sites with different rainfall and soils.

I'm overwhelmed by all the responses and information shared - truly appreciated! Will get to addressing the specific posts one by one after I re-read them.

Meanwhile I wish I'd provided more context earlier on in terms of the site, location, soil type etc as oats and stuff is not what is grown here locally in Asia. It is an arid dryland bordering dry tropics and 15 to 20" of rain a year. Some years a lot less and every 5 years or so all of it at once. Tractors are hired out on the hour and it's relatively cheap. It's a bit of the twilight zone here so a lot of the stuff you guys are talking about isn't available. There's lotsa local pulses and legumes that will work and we have broadcasted this around the areas where tree pits were made.

I've got about 5lbs of alfa-alfa which is probably what I will experiment with. Any biomass is welcome here!!!

Will go with my gut and avoid tilling. Seems counter productive to disturb the soil to green manure it in order to improve the soil when it hasn't been disturbed in this long. Instead we will dedicate a plot for cropping for next year and the client can focus on that area instead of ripping up random bits here and there.

p.s. Still thinking of cardboard mulching a strip and laying just enough soil on there and broadcasting. Will have to do it all manually though. Good 'ole shovel!

Travis Johnson wrote:I would do both. If you cannot do that due to cost, then just chisel. /

Cost is not an issue. This can be done by a neighbour for next to nothing.

Travis Johnson wrote:Discing alone will not get the job done as it will just create hardpan below the plow depth. It will not be as bad as rototilling which absolutely destroys soil, but it will not break up the hard pan either. Chiseling will.

Roto-till is what is being suggested!!!

Travis Johnson wrote: Just be ready to pick some rocks! Chisel plows have a way of finding rocks!

Man this area is so full of rocks. When the earthmover was here digging pits we found bowling ball sized rocks and sometimes mini granite slabs enough to build small benches.

Travis Johnson wrote:if you have more questions on saving money by getting the job done without expensive equipment, I can get some pictures for you with results.

I would love to see more. I will msg you or you can post on here as convenient.

Cheers

wayne fajkus wrote:I agree 100% that disturbances create undesirable weeds to flourish.

Seeds can be broadcast with no disturbance . I do it yearly on a small scale. On a big scale they do it with airplanes. All that is needed is moisture.

Clay balls is another method but ive never seen a need for it.

Any ideas on seeding rate required for such an exercise when theres already strong tufts of grass? In the sense that a lot of seed will stay suspended without actually hitting soil. And the conditions here mean periods of moisture followed by intense sun and dry spells.

Really don't want to bring in a machine!!!

p.s have used clay balls but for a small space and some fruit. Won't manage to get to this in time.

Just had a thought. I could reduce the area and line with cardboard. Then have soil from a nearby excavation spread over that and seeded. Only worried the roots wont penetrate the cardboard and lack of moisture may have a wicking effect. This is going to have to be rainfed... no irrigation.

Or if anyone wants to suggest out of the box?

Howdy folks.

This is my first time doing anything crop/tractor related, I've mostly just planted tree's and no dig back yard gardens.

Short version :

What : Chisel or Disc a field? Caveat : it hasn't been tilled or cultivated in 10 years

Why : Broadcast multi-manure seed mix to build soil for next years cropping season.

Long version :

Future plan : Orchard with intercropping. Canopy /fruit tree's planted every 40 feet or so. Nitrogen fixing trees at intervals for shade and chop and drop.

Currently the soil is moist and a carpet of grasses. Any disruption to it is an invitation for a LOT of less desirable plants to burst into life (all those dormant seeds need about 1 millionth of a second of sunlight and moisture and BOOM).

Working on a  3/4 acre plot

that has not seen any activity in a decade (i.e agricultural / cultivation).

The odd heavy machinery has rolled on over it and it has been severely grazed, the upside of which is a lot of nutrient deposit from animals passing through.

For the most part it is a lush meadow of native grasses, herbs and bushes for a brief period during the rains after which it goes back to looking like a posterchild for desertifcation.

We want to seed between the future rows/alleys with a multimanure mix now and it can be incorporated back into the soil at around 60 days. This should do a good job of building the soil and holding back the cycle of native grasses. Fear not, there's nice strips of undisturbed natives at other areas in the property.

Both discing /chisel seem like they open up the entire surface area. Which from the seeding point of view isn't bad but I want to make sure the lowest amount of soil is turned and maximum infiltration. Yeomans seems like the ideal way to get furrows in the soil where the multimanure seeds broadcasted will get washed in and sprout, but I understand that is not what the keyline application is specifically.

Thank you!

Howdy folks.

Pardon me for bumping an old thread - though it's related. This is my first time doing anything crop/tractor related.

Short version :

What : Chisel or Disc a field? Caveat : it hasn't been tilled in 10 years?

Why : Broadcast multi-manure seed mix to build soil for next years cropping season.

Long version :

I'm working on a 3/4 acre plot that has not seen any activity in a decade (i.e agricultural / cultivation). The odd heavy machinery has rolled on over it and it has been severely grazed however for the most part it is a lush meadow of native grasses, herbs and bushes for a brief period during the rains after which it goes back to looking like a posterchild for desertifcation. Now the plan is for intercropping so there will be canopy tree's planted at every 40 feet with nitrogen fixing trees at intervals for shade and chop and drop. I'd like to heavy seed between the tree rows with a multimanure mix that can be incorporated back into the soil at around 60 days and then build the soil for the first cropping season next year.

No fancy equipment around, basically all I want it furrows in the soil where the multimanure seeds broadcasted will get washed in and sprout.  However both discing /chisel seem like they open up the entire surface area. Which from the seeding point of view isn't bad but I want to make sure the lowest amount of soil is turned and maximum infiltration.

Soil has a carpet of grasses and any disruption to it is an invitation for a LOT of less desirable plants to burst into life (all those dormant seeds need about 1 millionth of a second of sunlight and moisture and BOOM).

Thank you!

Nuno Donato wrote:Hi all!

I'm planning some swales in one part of my land, but even thought the land is quite flat, I'm having a hard time figuring the contour lines.

I've tried A-Frames(too slow for a big land) and bunyip (needs 2 people to operate, but I'm alone doing this).

I'm considering getting some professional gear, but a quick searched revealed equipment priced at 3k or higher :o

Any clever suggestions on how to go about this?

Ideally, I'd love a tool connected to gps, so that I can also make a digital map of it, for planning purposes.

thanks in advance!

Mobile Topographer PRO (paid android app) is very useful. You can export the files straight into google earth or other formats and it has satellite positioning for GPS.

However ultimately I would still go over it with a bunyip prior to earthworks to ensure everything syncs up.

As you have said the land is relatively flat, it becomes more important to stay accurate.

How much acreage are we talking about?