We started our permaculture project nine years ago and have had several set backs. Even with absolute disasters (deer, totally depleted soil, tornado weather, bad planning, bad economics, downright stupidity, bla, bla, bla), we've still produced a surplus of food. I'm a Doctor and have no intention of giving up my practice in town, but what we do out here at our demonstration site is truly remarkable. Our neighbors are even getting on board. We don't have livestock (except for the forest maggot - deer), but our neighbors are growing sustainably. We barter vegetables for other needs. Our aquaponics greenhouse is more than breaking even. Now, our food forest took five years to "pop" and the deer have been our biggest adversary, but even our food hedges (fedges) are now beginning to move the beasties through the property, feeding them as well, while protecting our own food crops. Permaculture pays. It may not make you that $100,000.00 income, but it is able to provide for a healthy, happy, sustainable lifestyle, and to boot, one without crushing debt and enslaving consumerism. If supra-sustainability is the goal, I think the W-2 job is a must. But if it is a matter of sustainability and a measure of self-reliance, it's permaculture that is demonstrating, where other methods continue to fail the test. Example: My neighbor (three miles away) grows corn, soybeans and wheat on rotation. He "inherited" his farm (600 acres) from his grandfather, and went back to school for a degree in agribusiness. Since he put in his first crop, his debt has grown every year, even though his output is much greater than his grandfather's was. He calculated his annual soil loss at 4%. After ten years of farming, next year he won't be able to borrow any more money. He owes over seven million dollars now and can't see his way out of it. That's the contrast we should be focusing on. Lot's of work? Sure. Investment in time? Yup. Worth it? Paying off? Without a doubt.