Azita Williams

Sarah Milcetic wrote:I'm sorry I don't have time to read all the replies right this moment (outside is calling us to come back quickly) but this post really spoke to me when I saw it on the daily-ish! I didn't know that I dreamed of farming until we started down the path. My husband and I lived in NYC and grew herbs in a skylight and composted with worms in our 40 sq ft kitchen, then moved to an urban lot just outside the city when our oldest child was a toddler. We turned 50x100 foot lot with basically nothing but lawn to a nearly year-round food forest. We sold our house and bought an old RV and 8 acres. My husband didn't quit his job but started telecommuting and has reduced his hours as he has become more open to the farm and more involved each year. It has been hard but I wouldn't go back for anything! I'd be happy to talk to you if you'd like to.

Wow! Sarah, I'm so excited for you! going from living in NYC and growing herbs in a skylight to living on 8 acres ... you are living my dream!  And a year round food forest sounds so amazing! I'd definitely reach out to you with questions!

Emilie McVey wrote:Hi Azita, and welcome!  I, too, have the fantasy, as well as a husband who doesn't "want to be a farmer!!".
I've had this dream for ten years, and only now, at 59, am beginning to take steps toward it.  I long for open spaces and the peace that comes with it, and for lots of stars at night. But land is expensive, and savings have gone to college educations for our kids.  So my dream of acreage  has morphed to a large (very large, if possible) sunny backyard and under-the-radar chickens/ducks.

The tips from more seasoned permies are great!  Some of them I can vouch for (eg, even 1/8 acre garden produces a lot of food).  Others I am taking note of, myself, for my backyard farming endeavor.

Good luck to you, and keep us posted!

Yes, on top of our own student loan debt, we contribute to the little one's college funds.  We want to make sure in 14 yrs if she decides to go to college, she's covered.  Kid's education definitely is a big expense that keeps people working longer than they sometimes want to.  

Terri Matthews wrote:I ALWAYS wanted to farm!

My husband is a city boy and wanted to STAY a city boy, and so he got a job in a SMALL city as that way we could live on a small parcel of land and commute. We bought a house on an acre of land that was close enough to his city job and then later we bought 5 acres outside of town.

Because he DID get a job in a small city, my husband simply followed a highway from his job to outside of town to what he thought was a reasonable commute, and that was where we bought the house on an acre of land.

Every morning he followed that highway to work, and I also took the highway to the job I got in a hospital.

So, you want to farm. Fine. That means that you will want to sell what you grow. Or, you can do child care and farm in your free time: child care providers can bring in a decent wage and then you can work your land in the evenings or on weekends. Because you have school debts you might still need your income for a while

So, if you want to sell what you grow you might get a job in a store for the practice in selling, or you can raise plants in your back yard and sell at a farmer's market on Saturdays, or whatever. At any rate it is almost spring: you might raise a fine garden in your yard for experience.

A farm is a business but a homestead is not. I am not certain: are you wanting to farm or to homestead?

The more I research the more I realize that starting with homesteading makes more sense.  Yes, as you mentioned, we both have to work to payoff our student loans.  So I have to put the dream of homeschooling and full time farming on the back burner until we are debt free.  I can work part-time and still have time to tend to our homestead.

I'm learning new terminology on this forum which is amazing!  I love the phrase "food forest" and had never heard it before.

Carla Burke wrote:So. Much. Invaluable information, here!!! Azita, welcome to permies! I hope we can help you realize your dreams. Ready for my novella?

I'm going to reiterate a few things, most likely, but you might (maybe) have a better situation than you think. The first thing I'd do, is break it all down, and see what you already have, that leans toward what you long for, then build on it. For example, you said you already have some raised beds, and your husband is good with getting you a greenhouse. If it were me, (and it was,a long time ago, minus the greenhouse offer), I'd start by making the most of every *cubic* inch of growing space available to me. Go vertical, wherever you can, to increase your yield, per square foot. You can do this by adding trellises in the raised beds, and adding shelves & hanging things from the support beams inside the greenhouse, as well as by your choices of crops, and plants. If you use shelves, for example, you can do a boatload of small, high-yield bush-type plants, in containers. Vining plants that might typically be left to roam, can be trained or tied to trellises. Either way, going up dramatically increases your 'going out' yield.

While you're working on that, start looking into that home schooling interest. I taught my kids for a total of 6 1/2 years. There are as many ways to home school, as there are families who do it. You don't have to be glued to the kitchen table. You could base your 'classroom' and curriculum in the garden, utilizing all the various aspects of the garden, to teach science, reading, math, history, writing, and even physical education.

The next thing is the biggie - compromise. Paired with patience. What are your husband's goals and dreams? Those count, too. There may be ways to mesh your combined dreams, if you look beyond the usual way if doing things. But, don't rush him. Don't push him. I married a 'city boy', who'd always dreamed of having a little vacation cabin, in the Colorado mountains, maybe with a little garden - for salad, lol. When we met (I was already 43, and knew what I wanted) 13yrs ago, we talked. A LOT. He knew, before our first date, that I wanted a small, self sufficient farm, with lots of critters. I knew he saw it as a pipedream. But, he had a cat, and he'd had a dog, so I knew he was great with animals. He had kids (4 & 9), and was great with them, and my kids (10 - living with me, 18, & 21 - grown & on their own) loved him. I knew we could make it work, somehow. But, he had no interest in a farm. At all. We were flat broke, and (because of their custody agreement) he couldn't leave the Chicago area, and that turned out to be a good thing, because it forced us to take everything extremely slow. I moved 450 miles, crossing 2 state lines, to be with him. That was my first concession. I had 'escaped' the Chicago area ten years earlier, and was already in a rural area, in Kentucky, when we met! Over the next 8yrs, we talked and the kids grew up. We shared dreams, and slowly, our dreams melded. We saw ways we could both have most of what we longed for. At the same time, we made plans, together, and worked through all the little things that felt so big, at the time. We ended up with a bunny, that my (then 14yr old) daughter rescued, and it showed him that cats and dogs weren't the only animals with fun personalities, and it cracked his previous ideas about what he might be ok having around. So, we got Guinea pigs, and he saw that the more different critters he came to be exposed to, on a regular basis, the more sentient he understood most animals really are.

When things finally opened up for us, financially and custody-wise, he still wasn't quite ready - but we were able to move into a somewhat bigger place, where I was able to start growing things, and that opened his heart to more. Finally, a couple years ago, everything fell into place, and we were ready to leave the Chicago area. I first hunted in CO, like weed tailed about, for years. But, things were much different there, by then, and we decided it wasn't for us after all. So, we shifted gears, did some research, and discovered Missouri would be a better fit. We found a place almost immediately, and closed on it, in October of '18. Once it all started happening, it happened FAST! So fast, it took us until mid-February of '19, to get completely moved, into our 29acre land, with a log home - and our lease still wasn't up, on our place back in the Chicago burbs. The plan was only chickens, and get the gardens started, the first year (2019), then reassess, the 2nd (2020), and maybe add ducks, and talk about a couple of goat does - but NO bucks. We agreed on that, without question - absolutely no bucks! Sadly, our beloved bunny, Lola, died just before Easter, last year. After months of grieving, and some careful consideration, we decided we'd get a pair of puppies, to fill the hole she'd left in our lives.

By the end of 2019, we'd had a garden that flooded out, a few times; bought 10 chicks, raised them almost to egg laying, taken in a foster chicken, and had a pair of local dogs massacre 5 of our then 11 girls, including the super sweet foster chicken; John built a forge in the big garage; I turned one of the garages into a small barn, we drove to the middle of Nebraska to buy 3 dual-purpose goats (including a very sweet buck!!!); found and drove to the middle of Kansas, to buy John's dream-pup (a 32lb, 8wk old Irish Wolfhound), and were happily anticipating going a couple hours away, to pick up my dream-pup (a 4.5lb 8wk old Cavalier), on 1/4/2020.

We still have to get that garden going. Hopefully, it won't flood out our crops again, this year. But, compromise, creative problem solving, patience, baby-steps, making sure he knew his dreams were as important to me... This was how I won my devout city-boy over.

P.s. Neither of us has any interest in back-breaking labor, and something I believe is wise to plan for, is the likelihood that at some point, often without warning, physical labor will be something of a problem, or even simply impossible. We plan everything to be as low-maintenance as possible, to give ourselves to highest chances of the longest term success. I'm going to be 56, this month, he's going to be 52, next month, and we are already both disabled - but, we're doing it.

Carla,

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and journey with me.  One thing that is going to hold us back is our mountain of student loans.  So that's something we have to be conscious of when making a big financial move.  My husband has been in the public sector for 3 yrs now and if they keep the student oan forgiveness program alive for public sector employees, in 7 yrs his loans will be forgiven and he definitely wants to take advantage of that. Of course he can get another public sector job if we move.  

The compromise we talk about is if we own acreage in the right zoning, he'd like to build a few tiny homes to airbnb and an event center and maybe a tree-house.  But he definitely wants to work in his field.  
I think it all can work out with right planning and patience.  

Eric Hanson wrote:Azita,

Having read through the numerous responses since my last, I think there is some very good information here.

For a moment I am going to specifically reference Skandi’s comment about the size of the garden.  A full 1 acre garden is absolutely huge.  When one makes a garden, one gets far more food per acre than a row cropped field, but it also takes much more labor per acre than a field.

My first garden ever was a mere 3’ x 20’ish garden along the side of my garage.  I was absolutely stunned by how much actual food I got from that tiny patch land.  I took exquisite care of every square inch of ground in that garden and was well rewarded for my efforts.  

My second year gardening I still had the first plot in addition to a much larger second plot (about 15’x15’).  Unfortunately the second plot was not nearly as productive as the first.  I had soil problems (the “soil” was actually clay fill smoothed over mine tailings), one of which was a bizarre near total lack of phosphorus.  The second garden required much more attention and I didn’t have the time to do it, nor the knowledge about how to make my gardening work easier.

Back to Skandi’s point, a 1 acre garden is absolutely huge, and if it is just you doing the work (and you can’t do it all day as you have a child to watch after and you want another so your time is limited).  My thought is to start small.  Think about something like a 25’x25’ garden.  This is actually quite a large garden and will likely yield a great bounty for your family’s needs.  Then consider the time and work involved and increase the garden plot as need or desire.  My personal thoughts are that a half-acre garden is about near the limits of what one can realistically handle by oneself working on it full time.  That’s a LOT of garden and might well give your family everything they need and still have an excess!

Another approach could be starting off with raised bed gardens.  These take a little more work upfront, but if you fill it with the best garden soil/available it can become amazingly productive.  I use this approach and it is a very nice fit for my needs.  I get a very large yield from a tiny amount of land and being so tiny, I have much less maintenance work to do.  My goal is to get 3 of these beds going and they will give me a very nice harvest with very little work (after initial setup).

I will give you my trick to avoid the need to weed.  I am a teacher and as such I get a huge volume of paper each year.  I used to recycle this in our recycle bins in our classrooms.  Now I collect all the paper waste (3-4 page tests are great for this) and plant my garden.  After things are planted and growing, I lay the tests down in between rows, then cover with woodchips or straw.  I really don’t like weeding and the paper-barrier stops weeds in their tracks!  But they will let water through and slowly decay over the season so by fall there is basically nothing left.

Azita, this has been a long post, but I just wanted to emphasize just how much food you can get from a small garden and how much work a 1 acre garden really is.  I wish you the best of luck, and again feel free to ask if you have any questions.

Eric

I've decided to take my husband up on the backyard greenhouse for this season.  We are also building 2 raised beds, nothing big, maybe 3'X5' each.  

I like your idea of putting down paper to control weeds, but are you not worried bout the chemicals in the paper and ink getting in the soil and ending up in your veggies?  Is there a safe chemical free paper instead of commercial paper.  I'm really not familiar with the chemicals used in a paper mill and print ink.  

Reading all the helpful comments on here, i'm going to start small maybe 1/4 acre and just a few chickens.  I reached out to a local CSA farm to volunteer.  it's a 50 acre city owned and operated organic CSA.  I'm sure I'll learn a ton volunteering with them.  

Mick Fisch wrote:Welcome to Permies!  I wish you success in your efforts.  I second the idea of not trying to farm 20 or 40 acres by yourself.  You might have more success, be happier and have more time for your kids if you start smaller.

The difference between a fantasy and a calling is how much you are willing to sweat (not talk about sweating) for it and for how long.  That and making a plan rather than a vague castle in the sky (the castle in the sky is great, the plan is the ladder to get there).  

a few questions come to my mind:

1  Is there land around for a reasonable price close enough to your husbands job for him to commute?  If there is, you have a pretty viable option because it will involve the least risk and least disruption to your lives.  It will also put you close to possible markets for what you grow (the reason home grown eggs are cheaper in the country is because there are more homegrown eggs than buyers).  You need both market and supply.  Some parts of the country, the market is a long way away.

2  If there isn't land nearby, is your husband willing to relocate (and given his job field how easy is it for him to relocate and find employment that pays a living wage where you want to move to). I ask because the Pacific NW is a big area, and the Seattle area is crazy expensive!  

3  What are you willing to give up?  I mean, the stuff that you like about your current lifestyle.  There will be things you miss.  What do you expect to gain?  Is it worth it to you?  What would your husband miss?  What would he gain?  I've known a lot of women who were working mainly because their family wanted a lifestyle too expensive for the husbands salary alone.  I was able to let and my wife stay at home with the 9 kids because we drove old cars, hit the garage sales and thrift stores and did without some things that the some others wouldn't.  Is your husband ok with you being a stay at home mom?  It puts a bigger responsibility on him, although I think a stay at home mom can save a lot of money too (less expensive wardrobe, cooking from scratch, minimal child care expenses, reduced driving, wear and tear on vehicles.)  Several years ago I saw something that claimed that you would have spend about $100,000 a year to get the (non-sexual) services a stay at home mom provides.  Personally, I generally go with "if momma's happy, everyone's happy" rule.  I think a contented wife is worth a whole lot in most husbands minds.

I get enthusiastic quick.  My wife has to mull over any idea I present for quite a while before she gets on board.  Her automatic response to any new idea is 'NO' until she's examined it thoroughly.  That usually is good as she balances me out.  Just because your husband isn't on board yet, at least all the way, may be a good thing.

Mick,

There isn't any available land close to where my husband works and everything within commutable distance with a house on it will cost a few million dollars. So, if we set out to do this, we have to relocate to a less expensive part of the country.  I don't know where that would be.  i don't mind cold winters, but rather not live in a hot climate like the south. If living in the south was an option for us, my husband's family own a ton of land that's been in the family for generations that they lease out to local farmers that we could farm on, but I can't imagine living in the Georgia heat and dealing with hurricanes. I'd like to be in the outskirts of a big metropolitan to have a market to sell to.  

My husband does not mind relocating. In fact we have talked about relocating due to increased cost of living.  e.g our property taxes in the last 8 yrs have doubled to nearly $11K a year!!!  He will find employment in any large metro as he works in a high demand industry.

We are in general very crafty and DIY people and not big consumers, but now and then I think we buy too much stuff for the little one.  We have been aspiring to live a minimalist lifestyle for years; no holiday, anniversary or BD gifts  and have asked family members not to gift us stuff either and gradually donating STUFF we don't need.  We repair things if they can be repaired and we make them if we can.  we both enjoy sewing, I enjoy brewing homemade drinks, picking, fermenting, etc  My husband does all the cooking because he finds it therapeutic after a day of work at the office. so to answer your question, we already live a minimalist life style and not much to give up.   My family calls me a hippie because I'm not into the extravagant lifestyle they live with their BMWs and designer everything and we often get teased at family gatherings for not wearing designer clothes or wearing the same clothes to different events!!!

If we didn't have student loans, we could comfortably live on my husband's income now.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Azita Williams wrote:I think he doesn't want to break his back doing heavy duty farm work!  but I'm sure he'll come around.  

Don't count on it.  My husband is totally supportive of my efforts to grow stuff, but he has never, through over 20 years, come around to the idea of breaking his back doing heavy duty farm work, slaving away in the hot sun. He is in charge of chainsawing and preparing firewood, and operating the wood stove.  But I have done most everything else, from digging and planting, to putting in fencing and building chicken houses, to slaughtering chickens. In my experience it is a mistake to expect someone to change.  It is much more pragmatic to work with what the person is like now, and if they end up wanting to help, that's wonderful!  

Tyler,

Thank you for your reply.  Yes, it is possible that he may not come around, so I am planning on starting small, a scale that I can handle by myself.  If he helps, great. If he doesn't that's OK too.  Hopefully my child will take an interest in farming and help out or maybe not!  

Dustin Rhodes wrote:I definitely believe you have the skills and talents to win over your husband with this amazing idea!

Go with the greenhouse as a starter, and show him (by your success) how valuable your skills can be to your family - grow your family's favorite foods, cook with it, snack with it, show him how fulfilling it can be to grow something out of nothing, how beautiful plants can be.  teach your child(ren) to love getting dirty, love to help water the plants, pick the veggies right of the vine; show him the poetry and romance of farming before you even step one foot off your property.

Help him to fall in love with gardening, as you do; now you have a passionate partner in your venture, and a much happier, fulfilling future than ever before.

How do you think I got my farm future to become reality?

For sure!  We do have raised beds in the backyard that we grow herbs and tomatoes summertime.  He sure loves it, but I think he doesn't want to break his back doing heavy duty farm work!  but I'm sure he'll come around.  I can't be impulsive, it may take a few years to transition to farm living.  

S Bengi wrote:It is 10x harder to be a full time solo farmer with a baby and a young child.
It really is hard work to be a farmer selling 80 CSA. which means you probable had to grow 110CSA.

Moving out of the city to your own homestead sounds wonderful.
Maybe you can get jobs were you work a 3month to 6 month contract job during the winter. Collecting $30,000. And then the rest of the year you can do farming.
FYI: 2 acre seems to be the maximum amount of farm, that a very very seasoned farmer can handle by themselves. After that you have to call up the chemical companies, Monsanto, and big rigs. But with 20 acres, you could get your kid a pony, or have a 1 acre pond, Or subdivide the property when they kiddos get older. 20 acres will infact give you alot more options.

This definitely is something to think about.  Being a mom to a baby and a young child will be a full time job and the adding farming for a beginner I'm sure will be challenging.

Eric Hanson wrote:Azita,

For starters, I want to wish you the warmest of welcomes to Permies.  I honestly believe there is no place like it on the Internet.

Secondly, I believe that you are in fact experiencing a true calling.  It is most certainly not a stupid fantasy by any means.  I, too, like so many others on this site was drawn here by seeking and searching for very similar dreams.  I personally felt a need to own land so as to protect it from developing.  So long as I breathe air and own the home, my 9 acres will remain wild.

But life seems to never tire of throwing convoluted and sometimes contradictory needs.  I understand that you of course love your husband.  I also understand your calling. Is there any room for compromise?

You say your dream is a farm, but could your dream be fulfilled, even partially by owning some acreage and starting with gardening?  Maybe add in an orchard and/or a fruit patch?  Only you can answer these questions.  I am exploring ideas with you that might help you achieve your calling and still remain within the bounds of your family’s needs.

I could go on and on about how I was drawn to land, but this post is about you and your needs.  If I can in any way be of any help, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Eric

Eric,

Thank you for exploring ideas with me.  That certainly is an option.  
In general, my husband warms up to ideas given enough time and I think as I peruse this more seriously and volunteer with local farms, he will come around.  I'm sure he won't quit his job to work on the farm, so keeping it small and manageable for myself with maybe seasonal help and volunteers is going to be the way to go.  As other's have suggested starting with 1 acre garden and maybe a small orchard.  I would like to have  chickens for fresh eggs, but still contemplating whether I could deal with a coyote or raccoon attack.