Loretta Liefveld

Jean Rudd wrote:

I give mine neglect and no water in clay soil.

Wondering how difficult it is to dig up the roots when they are growing in clay soil.    I keep wanting to grow them, but I just think it would be too difficult.

John Suavecito wrote:I live on a suburban plot, so we're not talking about acreage.  I had been adding wood chips to it for years before I realized that the depth of gravel and black plastic was even there.  Removal of the plastic happened over about a month or two, on half of my back yard.   Spreading out the gravel happened over years.  Luckily, I had some partially rotted organic material that mixed in with it.  I had to use a pick axe to get down to the bottom of it. Then I would plant something.  As I kept putting more organic material over it, the gravel kind of mixed with the clay and organic material each time I planted something. I also have put rotten wood in the holes of every tree or bush I planted for years. Kind of a mini-hugel.  That helped too.  Then over the years I had finished planting something almost everywhere and the soil kind of healed on its own.

JohN S
PDX OR

I've only been at it for 6-8 years, and for the most part, I've been doing it sort of like you describe - dig an area, put compost in, plant something.   Go on to the next one.  I'm no spring chicken any more, and I just can't work as long or as hard as I used to.  Each year, I do another small area.   Right now, I'm almost done with a 5'x16' bed next to my house foundation.   It takes me about 4 hours to do a 4' section, then I'm just done for the day.  

I will be glad when I'm finally done going all around the garden areas.   You have given me hope that it's not futile.

John Suavecito wrote:

I also think that compressing the soil by driving over an area is not an optimal way  to start a garden area!  Yes, we inherited large patches of soil with six inches deep of gravel on top of black plastic, covering the clay.  Not a good situation. The clay was great for ceramics, but terrible for gardening.

It was a lot of work, but I had to remove all of the black plastic.  Then I had to mix in organic material and spread the gravel across to other parts of the yard that didn't have the gravel. Then it was moderately mixed in with the organic material to open up the clay and let oxygen and life in.  We kept many of the plants, but gradually moved over to more food, diversity, and native plants.  It has worked spectacularly!

John S
PDX OR

ROFL!   Yep - I didn't mention the black plastic that was under the gravel and river rock in the back yard!  What WERE they thinking!   Still haven't removed all of that.  I think maybe I've been able to remove about 1/3 of the gravel, river rock and black plastic so far.    Gee, I wonder if the previous owners of my place owned your place as well!   Can't imagine the amount of work you have gone through - especially, actually MOVING the gravel and spreading it out somewhere else.

And yeah, not only was that one area a driveway, but he also some parked heavy equipment on my little 'driveway garden'.   I have about 1/2 of that one fixed up so far.  Little by little.   Hugelbed in one area, buried kitchen waste in another (lasagna style), 6 inches of compost, etc.,

I'm also working toward food, diversity, and native plants.

Question:  How long did it take you to do all of this???

Tristan Vitali wrote:

Acid Razzor wrote:
Read the weeds and either help them do their job or try to do it for them. Running just off this list from the old farmer's almanac, https://www.almanac.com/what-weeds-tell-you-about-your-soil:

FYI:  The link doesn't work....   I'm pretty sure it's the colon as part of the link.   I did a search and came up with the correct link, without the colon.  

https://www.almanac.com/what-weeds-tell-you-about-your-soil

I have a 'foundation' bed (you know, those beds that are right next to the foundation of a house) that I have been working on. When we moved in 8 years ago, it had that horrible white decorative rock (you know, the stuff that only looks good for a brief time after you install it, before leaves and dirt land on top).   Under the rock, there was very high quality, heavy-duty landscape fabric.   It was planted with some variety of yucca, one rhododendron, and a Japanese maple.

I have now successfully removed the white rock and landscape fabric.  The soil underneath was extremely compacted and dead.   No signs of life at all.

I was surprised to find that as I started to dig it up, it didn't seem to be 'hard as concrete' or sticky, like other parts of my clay gardens.   I have a large overhanging eave, so I'm thinking it didn't get rained on, which is why it wasn't that hard.

The soil is very, very fine.  It seems almost like the consistency of all-purpose flour.

I used my broadfork with 12" tines to break it up and get down to the gigantic yucca roots (12-14" beneath the surface).  Then I added 4 inches of compost.  Broadforked it in, then used a shovel to turn it over again.  Finally used my trowel to further mix the compost in and find remaining pieces of yucca roots.

I realize that much tilling isn't really that good for the soil, but this soil had no life anyway.

But it seems that the texture of the soil is still quite fine.  I purchased the bulk compost and it's pretty clear it has been sifted - very few large pieces in it.   I can still grab a handful of soil, squeeze it, and it stays together, but easily comes apart.   As I was working the soil, I noticed that when I went back to an area I had already worked, some of it had already kind of compacted again.

I'm thinking maybe I should have put more compost on it to begin with??

I did put gypsum on top and raked it in, at the specified rate.   I'm also going to put another 2 inches of compost on top, without digging it in.

It's partial shade, since it's on the north side of the house.   I've planted more rhododendron, a couple of crocosmia, and bugleweed ground cover.

Thoughts?  Advice?  I still have another 30 square feet to work, so if there's more I should be doing, I'd love to hear about it.

John Suavecito wrote:Getting back on the topic of improving clay soil after using quite a bit of gravel in the plantings, it greatly improves drainage.  You can hardly notice that it is there when you move the plant later.  

John S
PDX OR

I just had to laugh when I read this, because one of my gardens is where there used to be a gravel driveway (compliments of the previous owner).   My entire back yard was covered by the previous owner with gravel, then river rock.  Oh, I have PLENTY of gravel!

You're right that with just a 'little bit' of gravel, you don't notice it very much.  But some of our clay seems to be exceptionally sticky.   So it ends up sticking very tightly to individual pieces of gravel, ending up forming a larger 'rock'.   I can't tell  you how many times I've grabbed a 'rock', and upon manipulating it, it eventually broke down and there was a single piece of gravel in the interior.

I had been wondering about whether that gravel does actually help drainage, though.   I did notice that when I diligently removed all of the gravel, it seemed in some areas that I had worse drainage.   But it doesn't seem to be an overall rule.   In my garden, the jury is still out.

Arthur Wierzchos wrote:We just made our move to Northwestern Poland from a more tropical environment of Taiwan.  

Hopefully they make it through!  I don't think there are many people growing these species at 50 degrees North Latitude.  

Wow - moving from Taiwan to Poland!  You will definitely have a challenge learning to deal with all that cold weather and snow.  But that's what I love about gardening - always a learning adventure.   In the meantime, I'm thrilled you brought starts with you, and they are growing!   I do think you will have to actually  heat your greenhouse, though.

Ralph Kettell wrote:We ended up with over 50 pepper plants in the garage.  

OMG!   50???  no wonder you were overrun with peppers  LOL

When we first took delivery the greenhouse temps were daily swinging from 40 degrees to 110.  

I feel your pain.   It is so hard to handle those huge swings.  We have them in the fall, also.

This is my first year trying to overwinter peppers, and I believe I'm going to have good success.

I had one pepper plant that I had been growing in a 5-gallon bucket.   Wasn't very happy, actually, but I managed to get a number of peppers from it.   Near the end of the season (after a lot of very hot days), it had a bunch of baby peppers.  I couldn't stand the thought of losing them, so I brought the whole bucket into my greenhouse.  They continued to grow, but very slowly.   As the days got shorter and shorter, I added grow lights.   My peppers are all turning red very nicely!!

I also had 3 other varieties that were in the ground or raised beds.   I following some instructions I found, cutting off all leaves and most branches, all the way down to the first  'Y', then pushing a shovel straight down all the way around the plant before lifting it up.   I have put these in 1-2 gallon pots, and because of the conditions in my greenhouse, they are already sprouting leaves.   I guess I'll just let them go ahead, rather than trying to force them to stay dormant.

Tristan Vitali wrote:
- surface application only with the sulfur "buttons", and not too thickly.

Dandelions have just started blooming!  Yesterday it got up to 85, so I'm guessing it's time to put sulfur down.  

Two questions, though:
1.  We're supposed to start having a week of rain starting mid-week next week.   Should I still put the sulfur down now?  Or should I wait until the rain is over?

2.  I'm a little worried about whether my chicken will think those little yellow buttons are something good to eat.   When I put some granular fertilizer down in my daffodil bed, they started eating it all up!    I have to assume it would be poisonous for them.    Thoughts?   Do I need to be sure to fence them out of the area for a month?