Rosie Hatfield

Such and interesting, and perennial, discussion.  I think so many of these answers, as always, depend on where you are, what the history and resources of a given place are.  It's a slightly abstract question (despite the original intent to get concrete examples), because all of us live in a world where industrial supports are so deeply embedded in our habits that it's almost impossible to not use them in some capacity--especially the ones that work so well (like pvc hoophouses!).  But we feel like we are building *resiliency* and skills, so that if we were ever truly pushed to *need* to do without the industrial support system, we could survive.

My implication here is that humans are extremely adaptable, and as all the examples given so far make clear, we do a wide variety of things to get our calories as necessary... bugs, anyone?  For us, wild foods provide the protein-and-calorie dense foods that wood supplement the potatoes.  So our half-acre grows significant (but not the total required) root crops for starch calories, and we also grow abundant greens and other veggies (potentially year-round in the PNW, but we're not there yet, personally) for the varied nutrients we need for health.  We fish and crab, and I'm trying to increase our bean production.  But this is all to basically match how my colonizing European ancestors ate and survived on the homestead (and who also still supplemented with flour, sugar, etc).  But if we were truly going to try for a permaculture diet, our real calories would come from a lot more meat than we generally like to eat: deer, rabbits, quail, etc are plentiful wild animals around here, and they're not usually seen as food. 

But I often wonder if this is where the population factor comes into play.  I think hub and I could/would survive pretty well on the resources available to us here.  But if we were competing with everyone around us?  Then the question of how much land each does our diet require and how many of us are there in a given place really rears its head...

I was just reading this interesting article on this topic yesterday.  This farmer says he just cuts his cover crop down really close to the roots, and then puts a layer of mulch (straw?) on top.  The mulch acts like a blanket so that the cover crop cuttings quickly decompose into the soil.  After a couple of weeks, he pulls off the mulch and has soil he can plant into.  Interesting to hear about this done on a scale larger than my garden beds!

http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/training/soil-article2.htm

CrunchyBread--what an inspiring story!  I'm convinced that cover crops are miracle workers.  And all of you are right on about the spiders and other predators that thrive in the straw cover.  We did have LOTS of snakes last year too, which I think made a huge difference to the slug population.

You've all inspired me to keep trying!

Hi L8bloomer, thanks to the bump I just saw this thread--we're in Cow Bay!

I too was caught between Solomon and permaculture in my first year of serious big veggie garden growing.  I would like to work towards what Paul C. outlined to get the best of both worlds.  I started my garden with sheet mulching in the fall with a thick layer of straw mulch on the top.  In the spring, I pulled off the straw (and the slugs with it!) off the beds that I was ready to plant, and left it on those beds that were going to be planted later. 

Remember that you can mulch with just about anything; it doesn't have to be straw, which does attract slugs.  I mulched those spring beds with compost, and this year I'll do the same (or use manure).  I used straw mulch for transplants going out during the dry season--tomatoes in particular did really well with the straw mulch.  That may partly be because of using older transplants.

When direct seeding, I experimented.  Just pulling back thick mulch to seed a row was a disaster, but pulling off the mulch, seeding, and laying a thin scattering of straw back on top worked really well--seemed to keep the birds from disrupting the fresh beds.

We'll be getting ducks later this year, and we have chicks growing into chickens at the moment.  I think the secret there is not to let the ducks into the garden for maintenance, but to let them all roam freely during the winter and early spring.  This is when there's not much growing besides weeds, and there are MANY baby slugs and eggs.  Having the poultry eat the babies means fewer slugs during the growing season.  I also love the idea of the chicken moat, where the poultry is around but not in the garden, and work as patrol zone!

I also like the idea of a fall cover crop that become the mulch for the winter and is decomposed by spring, ready for planting.  I'll be working my way towards that over the next couple of years. 

I think what is clear, though, is that the true Ruth Stout lasagne gardening with thick layers of mulch and the soil never disturbed is harder to carry off in a climate without a serious winter kill season.  So I think the kind of shifting or strategic mulch approach works better here.

I'm still learning, though!  Good luck to you!

I've just started collecting coffee chaff from our local roaster--I'm really excited about it.  Despite being a "brown" for the compost pile, it is also reputedly full of nitrogen and other nutrients.  It does mat a bit, but the pieces are so small that it's easily broken up when turning the compost pile.  I think if you moistened it, it would make great mulch, though I haven't tried it yet.  I think it would work a bit like grass cuttings in the garden, mat up a little, but break down quickly and work well as a weed barrier when wet.

I got turned on to chaff through this article about using chaff as a substitute for pine shavings as chicken litter!  I haven't had the courage to try it yet, as my chickens are still young and small and I worry about the possible dustiness.  But I'm keeping it in mind for later when they are bigger...

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Happy-Homesteader/Coffee-Chaff-Chicken-Coop-Litter.aspx

Thanks for clarifying Coleman's quote, jmy; I have wondered about the conflicting info out there, especially given Jeavon's calculations.

I have been reading the 1940s "Have-More Plan" that's available for download at the Mother Earth News site, and they really emphasize livestock, as does John Seymour in his books on a fairly traditional self-sufficient life. 

I think the dietary choices we make are really important to this whole discussion.  Jeavons is advocating a vegetarian diet, which clearly requires more space for growing the bulk calories.  As a long-time vegetarian, I'm struggling with this, because clearly eggs, chickens, rabbits, wild game are all much more efficient ways to meet those caloric goals.

The local diet craze got me thinking about this first: olive oil is a big import; the traditional diet in the PNW was all fish oils and fats.  Livestock as a major part of the diet does take more land for (healthy) grazers, but stacking wild game, fish, etc makes that space unnecessary.  For the first time in our formerly vegetarian lives, we have a freezer full of salmon, crab, and tuna that we've either caught ourselves or bought from friends who did.  With the eggs, we're eating a lot more protein, but it definitely feels more sustainable.  Counter-intuitive, though, to the usual (more superficial?) perspective on sustainable eating!

I hear a lot of advocating for nuts in permaculture: protein, calories, oils/fats, and of course all the benefits of trees and stacking.  However, we can't keep our nuts away from the squirrels! 

I think it depends on your definition of food self-sufficiency (which you did outline pretty clearly in your original post--kudos!).

I'm reading (finally!) Eliot Coleman's _New Organic Grower_, where he says 2.5 acres will feed 100 people. That's of vegetable production alone, I assume.  I'm on 1/2 acre, only a portion of which is usable.  During my first year, we easily fed ourselves fruit and veggie/potato-wise for several months and I don't anticipate any problems with being able to do so year round in the coming years.  We fish and crab/prawn, and I would like to add foraging in there down the road.  Next year we're planning for chickens and ducks; 3 of each will provide more eggs than we can eat, and they will be "farm workers" as opposed to meat.  But just down the road is a very sustainable pastured chicken operation that supplies that need as necessary.

There's only 2 of us, and we're not supplying our grain needs, nor likely all of the livestock forage, but it's amazing how productive a small space can be, especially with permaculture stacking techniques in use.

For me it's become clear that this is all the land we need if we are working outside jobs; it's also all the land we can handle as we both work full time.  The limitation in the small space is when we look at potentially producing an income, but an acre of productive land would replace one of our incomes relatively easily, I think.  We live in one of the most expensive places in the world, but also in close proximity to markets passionate about local organic food--pros and cons. 

Good luck!

TeeBuck, that wasn't too long at all.  I love hearing people's stories and experiences, especially when they are so similar.  That gave me lots to work with.  I keep reading folks who say that ducks are easier, hardier, etc, but there's so little info out there on them compared to the massive amounts about chickens.  I can see from your experience that I will enjoy them. 

Well, living in the PNW, I defintely "happen" to have a little himalayan blackberry here and there.   I will keep cutting the brambles for now, but I won't dig up the root as I had planned.  Nasturtiums sound good too; I had been looking at them for the guild.

And thanks for the tip about the Omega-3 mix; I will definitely see if anyone around here carries such a thing. 

I'm thinking I'll plant a thick mat of crimson clover this year as a basic broadcast groundcover, and then add a few bulbs, alpine strawberries, lupins, nasturtiums, etc.  There will be berries just outside the fence of the area which the birds can also nibble at through the fence.  If I plant daffodils for the guild, and they are poisonous to the critters, will they naturally avoid them?  Or should I go for a non-toxic bulb instead?  I was thinking of some camas, for instance.

Thanks!

Thanks pippimac; I'll keep thinking about the orchard area.  I'm still puzzling about whether to give the orchard to the ducks and just let the chickens in occasionally, or whether to keep them both together.  1 house is more efficient, but they do have separate needs.

On another note, I think I've found the answer to my chicken density question: the Earth Care Manual says: "120-180 chickens per hectare is the recommended density for an established orchard, though smaller numbers can still be beneficial".  By my calculations, that's about 600 sq ft per chicken minimum!  So a rotation is definitely in order for me. 

Any thoughts on ground covers for ducks?  Again, inheriting no grass and I'd rather work on some fruit tree guilds in the orchard...

Thanks!