Sam Shade

I live on a moderately busy 2 lane road but I have a thick barrier of shrubs and trees separating it from the property and the house sits on a hill overlooking it so it makes me feel like the lord of the valley.

Easy access to jobs is a big priority for those of us who don't generate much income from agriculture. I have a 5 minute commute to work thanks to my proximity to the city which frees up a lot of my non work day to do stuff on the land.

As for soil,  if it grows anything, that's a good starting point! My land is overrun with invasive shrubs that outcompete a lot of what I plant but that just makes it ideal for goats.

I've spent a lot of time planning for this goal; one of my favorite topics.

It is of course possible but the challenge for me is finding a way I would actually do it. That requires methods that draw the least on my two most limited resources - time and land.

My strategy is this two pronged, aiming first to minimize inputs by building much of their diet on weedy perennials that produce abundantly and multiseasonally, and second seeking multi use crops that also feed my family and our other animals, thus making maximum use of our space.

The heavy lifting perennials I'm doing my best to establish and expand are Chinese yams,  sunchokes, duckweed, mulberries, arctic kiwis, chestnuts, elderberries, persimmons, comfrey, and perennial kale, along with self seeding or similarly easy annuals (sorghum, amaranth and sunflower are my standbys).

Most of these are multi use - Chinese yams are the best example. They produce abundant popcorn sized bulbils that the chickens love while also producing tubers for the family underground.  Further,  they trellis up chicken chops, dropping feed into the run and their bulbils store over winter very well.

The other key multi is strategy is fitting them in with other animals. They pair particularly well with rabbits,  who breed so prolifically and must be harvested constantly. Rabbit viscera and scraps are great protein sources for chickens.  Once we start milking our goats,  I hope to provide additional protein and calcium by giving whey to the chickens.

I first encountered tagasaste on YouTube,  where I learned it is  widespread in Australia and NZ. I was immediately intrigued. A fast growing and tough perennial shrub,  evergreen, high protein fodder and pods for almost every conceivable type of livestock, nitrogen fixing, good firewood... a Swiss army knife in bush form.

Rare to find all those qualities in any single plant outside of the tropics.

So far I've only found one seller in the US and very limited information as to its suitability in our different zones.  Supposedly it's hardy to zone 8 but I was wondering if any Americans here have had any success sourcing and growing it here.

You mentioned tagasaste - that's a great idea. I've heard all kinds of good stuff about that plant. Evergreen, nitrogen fixing, nutrient-dense foliage and pods, vigorous.  I would feature it heavily.

I've only been able to find one seller in the US (and it's apparently borderline in my zone anyway), so I envy you!

I've grown asparagus from seed and crowns.  Extremely tough plant and something to look forward to every spring.  Just wish the harvesting window was longer.

Mark Reed wrote:Here, in the 1960s and I guess before, everybody had lots of chickens. They were not penned up at all. They were not fed much at all except in winter when they got some cracked corn in the morning and maybe a little more as they came back to the coop at night. Coyotes, foxes and bobcats were almost totally absent back then because they were shot or trapped to near regional extinction.  If one was spotted, every boy much over 8 years old was handed a rifle and put on patrol. Owls and hawks were very rare for the same reason and more so because of DDT. The coop was closed up at night against minks and weasels, which I guess were harder to eliminate.

I do mean lots of chickens. Baked chicken, fried chicken, stewed chicken was on the table at least once a week, all year along with the occasional turkey or goose. When mom said, you kids go get me a chicken for supper she did not mean, go the store.  Eggs were on the menu one way or another almost every day. I don't remember what happened to excess eggs, maybe some were sold or given away or traded.

I don't remember much worry over breeds, but I do remember some breed names.  Leghorns, Rhode Island Reds and bantams just lived together.  They were just identified by body type. A big fat chicken to bake, a skinny one or an extra rooster to fry, an old fat one to stew.  Roosters were commonly traded between families or farms. Broody hens were identified each spring and locked in their own little coops with a bunch of eggs, she and her brood were fed until they were big enough to be turned loose with the others, but I don't remember what. I think the type of chicken that dominated a flock was controlled by what roosters were chosen to keep living but there was always a big variety.

I think what I remember was about the last of it. DDT was banned and by the 1970s many farms were abandoned and especially in more hilly areas land was left to begin reforestation. I guess people didn't need their chickens anymore or their vegetable gardens, it was easier and more stylish to work in a factory. All the predators began to rebound.  Now, if you tried to keep chickens that way, you would soon have no chickens.

I have an unusual set-up - an old farmhouse on 5 acres that has been surrounded by urban sprawl. The sprawl keeps away coyotes and foxes (and deer!) leaving only the neighborhood cats and occasional stray dogs to worry about.

But the hawks are everywhere. When I free-ranged during winter, they were taking what felt like a chicken a week.  

Jay Angler wrote:

Sam Shade wrote:That's a totally free, endlessly renewable feed source for at the very least a steady supply of meat (haven't tested the all-forage diet on dairy production yet).

A neighbor lost a goat who had been feeding 2 kids. It may have been a lack of selenium, as our soils are naturally low in it, or it could have been other minerals. So knowing your soil as well as the nutritional value of a variety of forages put together, is important for milk production. I'm sure I read of someone offering a variety of different minerals separately, rather than the "multivitamin" approach which has been shown not to work that well on humans at least. The animals were smart enough to know which minerals they needed and did very well with that approach.  

And wrote:

Elaeagnus ebbingei (another evergreen for goats and rabbits plus edible berries)
Chocolate vine (semi-evergreen vine that produces bizzaro but edible akebia fruit)

These can both be invasive in areas. That can be an asset if you've got enough animals to keep them under control, but worth looking into how controllable they are in your specific climate. There are a couple of Elaeagnus species that are not invasive in my ecosystem, but are elsewhere.

Mine have successfully raised a single generation of kids - I just don't know if my mostly forage diet for them is sufficient to generate the surplus to give us milk as well.

Supposedly elaeagnus ebbingei is a sterile hybrid which keeps it off the invasive list in my area I believe. I know umbellata and pungens are frowned upon for invasiveness.  I think chocolate vine is still tolerated in my area but I know some northeastern states are trying to get rid of it.

Reviving this thread just to sing the praises of a near-exclusive forage diet for my Nigerian Dwarf goats.

It is truly remarkable how perfect a pairing these goats make with the supremely vigorous invasives that love the American Southeast.

My area has the notorious kudzu, along with the less well known but even more expansive privet. We also have loads of Japanese honeysuckle and porcelain berry.

With just these four plants and about an acre of land, I could feed my four goats year-round. The privet and honeysuckle are evergreen and the kudzu and porcelain berry are so vigorous you can gather enough for wintery hay and still have more than enough for warm weather feed. The privet are so tough too that they survive almost complete debarking.

That's a totally free, endlessly renewable feed source for at the very least a steady supply of meat (haven't tested the all-forage diet on dairy production yet).

The next phase for me is working in trees/vines that have more utility to humans as supplements and maybe replacements for the less desirable invasives.

The candidates so far:

Wax myrtle (evergreen shrub forage that's also safe for rabbits plus berries for candlemaking)
Elaeagnus ebbingei (another evergreen for goats and rabbits plus edible berries)
Chocolate vine (semi-evergreen vine that produces bizzaro but edible akebia fruit)
Arctic kiwi (deciduous vine with honeysuckle level annual growth but potential 50lb+ fruit yields per vine)

Add these to the established multiuse fodder powerhouses like mulberry, Jerusalem artichoke and bamboo and buying any kind of goat feed other than a mineral lick or some hay for a brutal winter becomes a distant memory.

Matthew Nistico wrote:

Sam Shade wrote:I have three goumis I started from cuttings two years ago.  Absolute tanks. My dad ripped one of them out of the ground on accident and we put it back in with no ill effects.

No fruit yet though.

Well, get ready because, when they do start fruiting, they fruit A LOT!

I have both seedling and named cultivar goumis.  I have to say that the named cultivars are worth it in terms of superior fruit quality.  Since I have so many, I think this coming season I will observe and mark all of the seedling goumi bushes in my food forest for deletion.  I can use that space for something else and, so long as you have at least three or four thriving, producing goumi bushes, you have all the berries you could likely need.  I'm sure I have more like 10 or a 12 cultivar bushes that would remain.

That's exciting - I've heard very good things about the taste and nutrient profile of goumi berries..

Mine hold their leaves into early winter but I want to expand into the evergreen elaegnus. I understand ebbingei is a favorite landscaping shrub. My hope is a hypervigorous, low maintenance, year round fodder source for goats and rabbits.  Any berries for me  and mine are gravy.

Matthew Nistico wrote:I nominate Goumi berry (Elaeagnus multiflora).  It gets a bad rap from the uneducated simply through association with other elaeagnus species that are considered invasive.  But not so with Goumi - I have many bushes over many years and have seen precious few seedlings.  It doesn't root sucker, either.

In my climate and region - clay soils, temperate, USDA zone 8, but right near to the border of zone 7, high annual rainfall but frequent summer droughts - Goumi has proven highly productive, highly ornamental, and pretty much bullet proof.  Even where I have stuck it in too much shade, it still grows and fruits, just not vigorously.  It seems to thrive on neglect and shrugs off periods of too much/too little rain.

I really don't know why more people aren't growing this species, both inside and outside of the Permieverse!  The only downside I will admit is that the occasional thorn makes dealing with the bush slightly unpleasant.  But still a lot better than brambles or wild raspberry or other truly prickly plants.

I have three goumis I started from cuttings two years ago.  Absolute tanks. My dad ripped one of them out of the ground on accident and we put it back in with no ill effects.

No fruit yet though.