James Raney

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:If you are wearing a consultant hat, your first job is to give the client honest advice.

If you tell the client that honestly there is no cheap fix and a permaculture fix is not realistic until the dam and spillway have been stabilized (not by you), that is not a professional failure. By telling the truth, you have done your due diligence as a consultant. You are not required to take responsibility for no-win scenarios, and as noted above you should not be tempted to try. My 2c.

I agree, they've been informed that what i will design is temporary and will need further development to become stable and reliable and need to be done is phases.

Preventing further rapid erosion is the goal for now and larger construction/redesign will need to happen as soon as funds permit. I'm getting the nrcs involved as well but the local office said it's out of their depth and basically said good luck and gave me a phone number for another office in the next county over. Lol

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:There is wisdom in what Steve says. I honestly don't see a fast fix. I think it would take a few years for robust permie solutions to be established. It would need to be off to the side of the main overflow, diverting only a small amount so it doesn't get washed away. Managing your client's expectations will be important. My 2c.

Thank you for your 2c, it is more than welcome! I agree! I have stressed the fact that this is a major issue with large potential for failure to the client. I do plan to get the NRCS involved however much I can to make sure nothing catastrophic happens but I also plan to proceed regardless of them helping or not.

I may not be able to fix the issue permanently with what I intend to do. But anything I do will postpone any large failures and buy time to develop either a better plan or tweak and finagle the design to achieve the desired outcome. Because as of now? Nothing is being done to prevent the spillways failure and the longer I wait, the larger the problem will become.

Again, thank you for the advice! It is greatly appreciated!

Steve Zoma wrote:I think a person is smart when they know when NOT to get involved. If it’s just a buddy you are getting advice for, that is one thing, but if it’s another where pay is involved or your name could end up on a court deposition, I think I would genteely step away.

My advice is to get the USDA NRCS involved. This is the type of stuff they were created for. They have the expertise and funding to fix this issue permanently.

Not that this is not a case study for permiculture. Proper Permiculture principals adopted early would have prevented this mess. But now? It’s overwhelming.

I really think the USDA NRCS if the location is in the USA is the best course of action at this point.

I wholeheartedly agree! I am currently trying to get ahold of a few extension offices to get assistance with designs or get the project funded through a conservation grant if i can manage it

This is a drastically larger issue than most people understand, the potential for failure is pretty high due to the circumstances with the way this pond was designed and built. And how poorly (not intentionally) the land is managed uphill.

I agree that this is out of my depth when I come to experience, but I don't intend to shy away from something that will force me to overcome my own inadequacies, whether that be finding assistance and oversight from professionals or passing off this project entirely and doing my best to learn during the process.

Thank you for the advice!

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:

James Raney wrote: But it's pretty tough to convince some ol' boy to change the way he runs his ranch. Especially if it's some long haired nature boy trying to tell him how it's supposed to be 😅  

Any cattleman worth his salt knows that having readily available water will earn him cash money. No flowers, beads, butterflies, or long hair involved. It's a practical fact.

There's also good data suggesting that siphoning clean drinking water to cattle helps them to gain weight faster (as opposed to having them wallow and shit in the water they drink.) I know cattlemen up here who are doing exactly that, and as a side effect it turns the source pond into an oasis for wildlife.



It's not that I don't think they're smart enough to get the benefits. It's more of It would be difficult to just knock on the door and try to explain how they could do better and that everything they've been doing is ruining they're land an water sources. Yes I wouldn't go about it that way but trying to convince someone of the fact that everything they've been doing is wrong and I know how to do it better and they should listen to me is a stretch lol

it will just take time and convincing results for them to see in person.
So maybe you need to talk about cash money to the good ol' boy. Don't assume that change is impossible -- it just needs a motivating factor. And good ol' boys are connected with ways to bring municipal/state money into the project, for the mutual good.

Rick Valley wrote:I'd say hire a crew of beavers, but if beaver food isn't available, you're S.O.O.L., (to be acronymonous.) But you can imitate beaver dams: observe how they do it and do it. (easier said than done)
You can add rock: round rock make a good channel bottom.  Moving water will respond to a cross-flow barrier by turning 90" in crossing the barrier: to spread flow, make a V barrier (if the flow is down-page) to spread the flow, do the reverse. To shift the flow, use a diagonal bar or sill.To practice this stuff, use a heap of sandy loam and a garden hose on a bit of slope. If you're still a kid, add plastic dinosaurs. Chevron ditches that start at the channel can spread water out, but some sort of control at the bank is a good idea. There are pamphlets and books on this subject but I am not up on what's current (so to speak!) Live willow cuttings (when the leaves are down) can do this shit and grow, a nd creek/osier/red bark dogwood can "strike from cuttings " ie root and grow. And if they start blocking the channel, just cut 'em down, give or sell the cuttings to someone needing them and the live roots will remain. This is all to say there's a lot of observation and trial'n'error to getting it right where you are and with what you have.
This is all why kids need to have access to mudholes, sand boxes, child-size tools, hoses and water.  My first essay in this direction was to see how the Pussy Willows my dad brought home one spring for Mom, who loved flowers. Well, the cuttings put out roots in the vase, and dad planted one and it grew. Fast.  So I took cuttings off the new tree a couple years later, with my pocket knife, went down to the little creek below my friend's house, that ran two miles to Lake Ontario, and I stuck the cut dormant cuttings into a sand bar (the easy way out!) In 2-3 years (we're talking 1954 here, my memory has limits) I was able to root live branches on both sides of the stream and weave a live bridge/tree house. Too much fun. If you want to keep the spillway spilling, though you'll probably want to cut live stems during the growing season, and cut yearly. Remember the DIRECTIVE! OBTAIN A YIELD!! so: forage? compost? (as top layer on a hot day, leafy cuttings will perish swiftly) or for basketry? (if a stem of willow can be bent back on its self and it does not snap, but kink, congraduations, you have an official basket willow. Lots of herbivores will eat willow cuttings as well, not just beavers. Or try tasting the young bark: some willows have beaucoup salicylates, as in "Acetosalicylic acid" or aspirin, and if you have arthritis you will quickly learn which willows in your world are good for pain relief. Better for your stomach than the white tabs. and some even taste bearable.
OTHER possibilities: look around for wetland grasses common to your area. Plant the spillway with them. If there is active erosion and there's gullying, do round-rock/cobble stone rip rap, and plant grass or sedge sprigs (with roots) in the spaces between rocks. Water if it's dry. Make observations of places that seem similar and chose what's growing there, and use a narrow SHARPENED spade and dig clumps scattered, not just one big pit, eh? Or get a small Japanese pick mattock. One you have one of those you'll wonder where it was all your life. It's the #1 digging tool for me. If you're working LARGE, you can buy rolls of black plastic mesh, do the spillway with a bulldozer, dig it a tad deep, till and amend the channel, put down poly mesh by the roll, cover with amended topsoil, and at the right season/weather/time, sprig live grass divisions into the holes, water them in and water until the rain comes. THAT"S Highway Dept. Stylie. (do the research on seasonal inundation tolerant grass species for your area. SO there's lots of possibilities depending on climate, soils, native and/or available appropriate species and your resources and resourcefulness. Observe! and Accept Feedback. I did this every chance I had as a kid

I'm definitely considering that willows! I've heard they're fantastic fodder trees and on a longer coppice/pollard harvest rotation can make good firewood sources! The pain killer part is new to me though! VERY interesting. My clients are getting older and I'd bet they would rather have a natural source of pain meds haha thank you for the advice! And I'll be looking for a beaver crew! I'll bet if i can get this ponds ecosystem boosted somewhat, I'll probably get a family of beavers moved in! Also gotta convince the neighbors not to shoot em 🤦‍♂️

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:First of all, look upstream! A series of weirs / beaver dams to slow down and hold back the flow from massive rains! These create massive habitat and riparian areas, holding water for the dry times.

If that unrestricted flow hits the pond, the cost of constraining it will be a helluva lot more than $25K.

Also: is there a way to have a controlled draindown (just like hydro dams do) when a surge of water is expected? Don't be a sitting duck. My 2c.

Unfortunately my client only owns the land with that corner of the pond in it.. lol that was one of my first thoughts was changing grazing patterns and holding water higher in the landscape. That would help with the storm surges drastically and improve the surrounding land. But it's pretty tough to convince some ol' boy to change the way he runs his ranch. Especially if it's some long haired nature boy trying to tell him how it's supposed to be 😅

That part will have to come with time. There's a multitude of things I need to change around that watershed to help this pond ecosystem thrive.

Ben Brownell wrote:I guess if you're going for a lower cost more harmonious solution, there's an element of chance and timing involved in getting things properly established and dialed in. So, perhaps a combined approach that may work out optimally the first time if you're lucky to avoid a real high flow event over first winter or two while it naturally ties itself together - with the fallback of an acceptable "failure mode" if it does get hit with big water too soon.
I honestly can't see that kind of water volume pushing multiple large (say 16" x 20'+) hardwood logs out if they're at least moderately keyed into place, and maybe even tied together in steepest parts with some cabling. If the logs can hold up without being badly undermined, then it's just a matter of reloading with fill and plants again next season if you get some washout. Could experiment with geotextile fabric in vulnerable spots temporarily too, or gabion cages?

We did have a good dry spell this summer that had the water level very low, which would have been perfect to install this system. But circumstances made that not possible unfortunately. And the last hard rain they had, they recorded 8ft over that sill and 35ish ft across. Its a very heavy flow unfortunately lol

Ben Brownell wrote:Got access to many sizable hardwood timbers? I'd think that a semi-organized array of those laying cross-wise in a step down fashion and backed with rubble and fill could bring those cut-outs back up close to even grade, and allow you to plant into it for long term stabilization if you can channel most of the flow over or around via spillway or a sluice/culvert type halfpipe drain.

I had the same thoughts! Eventually I want to be able to get some good vegetation in the area to hold the soil in place but as an emergency overflow spillway I think the heavy storm events would wash out anything other than large rock or concrete :/ if it was the main spillway that is fed by a constant flow like a spring? Then YES the logs would be perfect. Or maybe just anchor the logs with massive boulders?

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:Looks to me like that pond doesn't have a proper spillway, it just has a low spot in the berm where water can run over.

If you are going to use concrete, you might as well pour a slab, and make a sill and apron, rather than placing disconnected concrete bags which are much more susceptible to washing away.

it definitely does not have a proper spillway.. lol it used to have a spillway pipe running through the dam but it failed and they (probably one of the surrounding property owners to the pond) just sealed it and called it "fixed".
creating a slab level sill is definitely one of the plans. the client would rather have something not as extensive but with the amount of flow that goes through this spillway that may be the smartest choice.  

Steve Zoma wrote:Wow, I am not sure, but I am not sure what is meant by "permaculture Solution".

If you mean "inexpensive"... well..... it looks like a huge liability to me. You got a lot of backed up water behind very erosion prone soil that looks like it wants to runs down towards a road. It's very serious because it has the makings of a mini-Johnstown, PA USA dam disaster.

I would also be looking to see if there are varmint around that dig; pronto. While I understand no-kill, not when it comes to backed up water in high liability situations. One burrow too close to the water's edge will create something called "piping" and will undercut an earthen embankment in a matter of minutes. You want to be sure no woodchucks are in the area! Look up dam piping if you want to scare the pants off yourself!

At this point anything is better than nothing, but its a big issue because its a big pond. I could easily see why they got a quote for $25,000.

It looks to me like the spillway needs to be reshaped, most likely with a wide flat bottom ditch so during high rain events, it can pass lots of water at a slower speed, then add riprap. Barring that, I might put vertical wooden piles in the ground and add brush to help hold in the soil. That might come in cheaper than just using riprap. You can't just use brush because it will be washed down stream with the high flows. Put some posts in the ground to lock in the brush laid sideways, and it should keep the soil from washing out anymore.

"Permaculture solution" as in not just throw a crap ton of rock in the holes and call it a day, but actually attempt to make use of the area while accomplishing the goal of not having the whole pond empty in a catastrophic event. like maybe divert to a potential wetland coppice field for fuel? Or having the area be a grazing pasture for milking goats or sheep for profit while maintaining a proper grass coverage so theres no erosion regardless of how heavy the flow is?

the pond/spillway were not built correctly to begn with so i understand its a bit of a losing battle. lol

I agree! its a rather large undertaking... from P.A. Yeomans catchment calculations it needs a 45 ft lvl sill. i honestly think thats still a little small, anything that has the distructive potential of this magnitude would probably be best over engineered.

the plan is to make as long a lvl sill as possible and using concrete bags with rebar hammered through them as the lvl sill with a wide rock apron goin down into the pond. then once the gully erosion spots are regraded and armored with riprap to use large one rock dams spaced out to slow and spread the flow. theres an old swale that were going to attempt to divert a portion of the water out to as long a lvl grassed sill as possible.