c. mcdonald

Nathanael Szobody wrote:I have read about the Hopi deep planting methods. If my memory serves well, the practice depends on having the right variety. It will also depend on your exact soil type; a little extra clay or stone can make the practice much less viable.

So you will have to experiment with your own plot and the seeds you can source. You can dig a trench that gets progressively deeper with markers planted along the outside of it indicating depth at each point. Plant your seeds--all sorts that you want to try-- the length of the trench. It won't be long before you'll know exactly what seeds can be planted at which depth.

Just be sure to mulch. It will dramatically improve results.

And let us know!!

I do have some Hopi seeds that we got to grow at one point, being Hopi Blue and not the Hopi White I've found he grows they may have slight differences. I'll have to try that trenching method, as well as individual holes, as I would have to get all the planting done in one day before the soil I'm putting back over them dries out. I don't have much for mulch except rocks, so maybe a stone mulch could work, or maybe a mix of stone and straw. I might also try making some varieties of my own, here, by just planting deeper year after year with things like cotton (it would be lovely to have a fiber source that isn't wool as I'm not sure I could handle sheep on the property I live on currently). Our soils are somewhat silt heavy and sink moisture rapidly, as well as hold on to it well so that isn't a concern for me. And I absolutely will post results when I get them!

Anne Miller wrote:From the article it sounds like this method is for Dry Land Farming so unless a person lives in Dry land country with snow this method would not work.

The point of plating deep is to find the moisture left by the melting snow.

Lucky, not a problem for me! We get both monsoon rains which recharge soil moisture around July and snows which come between January and April for the first parts of the year. I was planning on combining this with other methods, like the monsoon plantings found in O'Odham cultures.

I found some interesting information while researching, only yesterday- apparently, I haven't been planting my corn deep enough to not have to use irrigation where I live. Where I am, near the Bradshaw mountains, is always dry and windy (and this time of year, hot and windy- hot wind sucks) and around June the top 3 or 4 inches of soil become inhospitable to anything other than the nasties that grow deep down into the soil, sometimes several feet. As it turns out, corn can be planted at this depth to directly access this moisture.

The numbers here are from this University of Arizona article I found while looking into Hopi dry farming with the exact thought process of "they did it with no irrigation in drier parts of the state, what am I doing wrong here?" : https://resilience.arizona.edu/news/man-working-sustain-hopi-dry-farming-arizona

And I found that beans are planted also at much lower depths in these soils, from a presentation here: https://sehd.ucdenver.edu/renegalindo/files/2014/10/Dry-Farming-.pdf

So, as an idea for a thread- Any numbers on other crops? Corn, beans, squash and melons are already covered with the above (in case the links get taken down, 6-18" for corn, 3-4" for beans, and 2-4" for squash and melons), but what about other crops grown here? Chiles, tomatoes, cotton, tobacco, and the ever-useful sunflower are the big ones, but any others are incredibly helpful too. Please chime in, even if it's with anecdotal experience- It can't be tested if it can't be known about, so please feel free to infodump here. I love reading permie infodumps anyhow.

Thank you both. I don't know about talking on it right now- I don't have the money to comfortably approach, let alone not being in the area. The reason I've shied away from land listing sites is because in much of the area I'm looking at (Deep South, mostly) they have very few of the smaller listings, and the lower price listings, and quite obviously, none of the "For Sale by Owner" ones that I remember seeing everywhere when I lived down that way (Only on signs or listed in papers). I wouldn't mind LA, I had a lot of family from over that way. My great grandmother was Cajun, though lived in Alabama, and had family down in Cajun Country (Think circa 1940s).

I plan on going for a long drive through, when I have the money saved up to seriously approach, and the skills to ensure a decent career. Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina are all prime targets for me due to the climate that on the whole is favorable to the kind of farm I want to have. I also don't mind bare land, or even timberland. I can learn to run a saw and a portable mill, and build what I need on what's on the property. I'm not looking for quick, and I certainly won't shy away from the hard work of starting from scratch. I'm looking on it more as a project, to build what I want and need, and then go live it. Luckily I'm still young and haven't had my body entirely destroyed yet. (though thanks to a bout of severe depression and lack of exercise I have dealt with some atrophy to my quadriceps, and thus developed patellar instability that threatens to cause me arthritis before I'm 30. Hooray!)

I definitely intend to go onto some pretty rural land- Having neighbors is nice, but I have certain hobbies that better suit a life that's a little separated from too many prying eyes.

Second thread posted, but it's been bugging me for a while, and I'd like to get resources on it. I want to buy land in the South. I miss every part of it (even the humidity and bugs) and especially the people. Hearing a twang or feeling warm summer rain on my face brings back every memory of the (few) years I spent living there. I want to go back, but I don't know if I can (for other reasons, really, but that's personal). I plan on going on a drive back through the deep South when I've got the money, and I want to know a few things.

1. Who do I talk to? I want to buy from someone who's there, preferably a direct purchase from the owner, or through a local realtor. Who should I look for? Should I go straight to old folks, or just ask around when I'm staying in a place? What communities should I ask about, given I'm a very white young man and have a very white name? What kind of person can I trust? What kind of person would trust me?

2. Where should I look? I'm looking mostly for areas that can grow rice, corn, beans, and millet or sorghum in the summer, and wheat, barley, rye, and peas in the winter. I plan on vigorous cultivation, and rotating fields between cultivation and grazing (probably cattle or goats- maybe a horse). Most of my memories and fondnesses are of a little town in the South Carolina Lowcountry, and I would be lying if I said it wasn't partly because it takes far more trouble to kill things there than grow them (in my experience- we kept a hell of a garden.) Heavy rain will be extremely tolerated! I love rain more than you think anyone ever could, and humidity is pretty tolerable too (as long as I have something to do. I miss that Walterboro rock and gem shop, and every other little place there). Similar climate is preferred, and mild to fairly temperate winters are all good by me.

3. How should I look? This kind of ties back into the first, I want to know- How do I act? How do I talk? I know the obvious- Open with the chitchat, be a good guest, then when it gets down to business, cut to it for them, and make the money I'm willing to spend obvious. It's been a while since I've been there but I do remember that the relationship was always more important to a lot of people than the money alone- they wanted to know it was clean money, or at least money they felt was coming from good hands.

Any advice? Anything useful for me? Please, I'd love to know. Thank you for your consideration and time!

Faye Streiff wrote: Wish we could grow millet, but without a thresher would be impossible to winnow.  Made some killer pancakes yesterday with leftover cooked millet, half cottage cheese, eggs, roll into other flour to dry out enough to cook by sautéing in coconut oil.  

Winnowing millet is easy, from what I've heard. Just use a rolling pin and then sift, or better, grind coarsely and sift out the hulls before making flour. Hitting or rolling stiffly over with a rolling pin or putting in a large mortar and pestle to crack them preserves the grain but separates the hull, apparently.

Two things:

What kind of heat tolerant? Are we talking West or East, dry or wet, what kind? How intense?

And sort of from the last one, how much water and when?

If you're in Arizona like I am, your best bet is to get your hands on a normal variety and plant in winter. Much the same for the other states with hot, dry summers- the winter is better for grains (excepting millet, sorghum, corn and rice [if you can somehow grow rice in the hot dry]) and the summer is better for fruits- the standard fare of grapes, cherries, potentially apples, peaches, plums and figs. If it's hot and wet during the summer, much the same, but plant right as the rain is slowing down for winter but before it stops (or drops off), so everything can germinate. If you're doing it in dry places, soak your grains for a day or so before they get sown, and water until they sprout, then water occasionally.

I wish you luck in your planting!

Nick Shepherd wrote:Can you graft any mulberry variety to any other?  Specifically I want to graft Gerardi to dwarf everbearing.

I'm not too particularly knowledgeable on this specifically, but it shouldn't be a problem- If you can graft pear to apple rootstock, you should be able to graft mulberry to mulberry. Unfortunately I have only tried water rooting of a non-fruiting variety.

Alright, after a short hiatus and a bit of searching, I have found a few new things.

1. Pups aren't necessary and may actually be bad for long term production- as they have the exact same genetics, this can leave them vulnerable to disease. This unfortunately leaves few alternatives, but:
2. If you cut down the stalk before it fully dries, then pick off the fruits (once the plant starts to go a little purple, that seems to be the right time) and dry them out, you get a lot of incredibly viable seeds. 95-100% germination rate as long as they're black seeds (I do not know how long they keep for, found from an agave enthusiast forum that I can't remember at the moment).

I managed to find a dried stalk on my family's property and didn't get anything. I found a second that I had cut earlier on, and voila! Seeds! Lots of them from one head, at least fifty, even after months just sitting out on the ground. I've now started them in an old paper egg carton and we'll be seeing how that goes, and hopefully I'll soon have some lovely little sprouts, capable once they're large enough of producing everything between aguamiel (and thus pulque) and sisal fibers useful in a whole lot of things. Let's hope, they're lovely, beautiful plants that can produce up to a thousand liters of aguamiel a season at peak production, strong but coarse sisal fibers good for high-strength rope and sackmaking (I'm sure they could be used for sandals, slings, and just about anything that could be made by weaving), and if I get a large enough mill for them, mezcal (and tequila, if I built something to steam instead of roasting them).

Anne Miller wrote:When I lived in Mexico there were Agave Farms where the agave had spigot on them to tap the juice to make tequila.

I feel you are right about rooting the pups.

Maybe wearing gloves when handling the pups would be a good idea.

For sure, but they're not hard to handle without gloves. Just grab at the base, there's no spines. I wonder about that spigot, though- Maybe similar to tapping a tree? What I think I'll go for is cutting off the stalk early in the growth season for the canes (around july? They all pop up at different times) and hollow out what's left. Apparently they collect the sap in the heart and cutting the cane lets you get at it. Might try a tap route, though- seems easier than going out with a ladle once a day.