Mike H

Tyler Ludens wrote: Are all permaculturists required to be homesteaders or broadacre?

Absolutely not. Michael Phillips, author of The Holistic Orchard grows apples.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I think being more familiar with the existing examples and information might help. Like I said earlier, there's 30+ years of published material on permaculture to study if one wants to, that's a lot when you consider all the disciplines which fall under the heading "permaculture"; agroforestry, organic gardening, integrated pest management, managed rotational grazing, timber management, wildlife management, appropriate technology, passive solar design, rainwater management, Keyline design etc etc. This thread seems to view permaculture as merely an alternative agricultural model. Permaculture is a design system for integrating humans harmoniously in the landscape with productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability and resilience of natural ecosystems, at least according to the guy who invented it. So there's a lot more going on than just growing food, far more going on than just growing calories. If one is trying to learn more about productive food-growing systems, there's a lot of detailed information available from the various sub-disciplines which fall under the heading "permaculture." For instance one can get 30+ years of research on organic farming from the Rodale Institute, 30+ years of research on Biointensive gardening from Ecology Action, 30+ years of research on perennial grain systems from the Land Institute, etc etc. It would be great if there were a single clearing-house for information just labeled "permaculture" but there isn't yet that I know of. There are many many libraries of information, some of which have been compiled on the internet such as the Soil and Health Library and various other archives. For scientific study papers one might have to subscribe to journals of the various sub-disciplines (example Australian Agroforestry magazine) though there are several journal archives online. A few different sets of people are working on various permaculture information databases but I don't think anything is online yet.

With all due respect, I don't think that it's fair or even reasonable to say that Jeavons, Rodale, the Land Institute are sub-sets of permaculture. I know that you used "permaculture" but even a loose umbrella view doesn't work for me. Nor do I think that Natural Farming (Fukuoka, Hazelip, Jamie Nicol) is a sub-set. I don't think that Steve Solomon, Carol Deppe, Dave Duhon & Cindy Gebhard are subsets either. They are separate streams that often overlap and there are common themes - work with nature, don't use chemicals, save your seed, feed the soil, etc. And now I'm really going to put my foot in it: I don't think that permaculture as it currently exists is sufficient by itself. I think that its examples are limited by the geographic and climactic experience of the three wise men. If I tried to incorporate a temperate Crawford forest garden never mind a sub-tropical Lawton forest garden as a key part of my plan where I live - 125 km northeast of Toronto, Canada which is USDA Zone 4a, I'd starve to death really quickly. The truth of the matter is that I'd better be growing root vegetables, winter squashes which are root cellared and canned to take me through the season where the land is covered in snow. And I'd better be growing peas & beans including soybeans which I can dry. And I'd better be growing perennial rye, wheat and buckwheat because grain stores well. Cold frames are a nice idea for extending the end of the season until you have to go out in -20C weather with a wind that makes it feel like -30C. I quickly figured out that sprouting peas was a much better idea since they taste like fresh peas and will put out more growth when you pinch out the tops to eat. And I'd better be coppicing firewood or I'm going to freeze to death faster than I starve to death. I think that permaculture needs to grow beyond what it is. If you look at the more visible permaculture pockets around the world - they are temperate or tropical. Chickens may scratch for a living elsewhere but I'd better be growing chicken feed to take them through the winter. So chickens are not part of my plan although they or rabbits or something with a tiny tummy may have to be because of the vegan B-12 problem. Where you live changes the picture completely - The temperature in The Channon has never dropped below +2.8C - http://weather.mla.com.au/climate-history/nsw/the-channon - and influences the systems that you design. There are folks here giving permaculture courses and folks who are taking the courses but those who have taken the courses seem to be struggling with execution. I think that permaculture needs to evolve into an all climate design system. As it exists right now, it contains what is needed for that to happen - observe your surroundings and design accordingly. Perhaps Geoff should come to Quebec City for Carnival at the beginning of February. That might lead him to a new level of creative thinking. <grin>

Regards,
Mike

I think that it's great to see a permaculturalist trying to figure out how to fit in some of the mainstream, conventional food plants. It seems to me that potatoes are a critical part of the equation because of their nutritional content - they lack only calcium and Vitamin A.




Perennial varieties of wheat, rye and buckwheat might be better alternatives that annual varieties. The wheat and the rye have a substantial amount of green growth. Whether it can be scythed without compromising the following year's yield would need to be explored.

Hmmm. That's a huge quantity for .5 acres even if you are growing 365 days/year. If I convert 100 m2 cereals to acres, I get 100 x 100= 10,000 square metres which is 2 acres. Can you check your numbers or did I miss something which is likely? Do you really mean .5 acres? Here's some info on grain math - http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/June02/math/math.htm that might be helpful.

You also have to be careful how you use legumes. If you plan to let the legumes flower and go to seed, there will be little nitrogen left to feed the soil. You can feed yourself with legumes or you can feed the soil with legumes but you can't feed both at the same time. Corn will put a strain on fertility since it is the SUV of grains when it comes to sucking fertility out of the soil. Forest gardens allow you to layer plants but not so with potatoes, wheat, oats, etc. which as Martin Crawford says in Creating a Forest Garden, "you need to either allow for a sunny clearing within the forest garden, or grow them elsewhere.

Paulo Bessa wrote:
Soy is so high in enzyme inhibitors, I would only grow it for chickens and hogs unless you want to make tempeh.

There are two varieties available in the USDA-ARS National Plant Germplasm System where the Kunitz trypsin inhibitor is absent. Additionally steaming soybeans for 10 minutes at 100C inactivates about 80% of the SBTI activity and resulted in the maximum protein quality of the food. One of the best, if not the best, places to start if you are looking for peer-reviewed research-based information on soybeans is Willam Shurtleff and Akiko Aoyagi's Soyinfo center - http://www.soyinfocenter.com/index.php. It completely avoids the soy is good/soy is bad pissing match. You can find info on how to prepare beans for soy beverage in a way that reduces the beany taste. The cold-water-overnight-soak approach, in fact, increases the beany taste. It allows you to find triple-null lipoxygenase beans that do not have the enzymes that cause the beany taste.

Regards,
Mike

Laura Jean Wilde wrote:I don't seem to have permission to access the lectures. Am I missing something?

You may have to install Silverlight from Microsoft or Moonlight if your operating system is Ubuntu.

Laura Jean Wilde wrote:Is it just me, or are ther other people frustrated with trying to find some continuing education on permaculture

Introduction to Permaculture - 31 FREE lectures via NC State distance learning

Monte Hines wrote:I found the research work of Chris Peters very interesting and informative on the subject. Chris Peters, the lead author of the study on New York's agricultural footprint, has been honored for related work on local "foodsheds," as well as his teaching and outreach, with the 2007 Gerald O. Mott Scholarship for Meritorious Graduate Students in Crop Science.

"A person following a low-fat vegetarian diet, for example, will need less than half (0.44) an acre per person per year to produce their food," said Christian Peters, M.S. '02, Ph.D. '07, a Cornell postdoctoral associate in crop and soil sciences and lead author of the research. "A high-fat diet with a lot of meat, on the other hand, needs 2.11 acres."

1.67 additional acres is enough to graze and produce winter fodder??? I think he's playing with numbers in a statistical model. I had some difficulty when I looked at his research finding a list of exactly what he would be growing in a low-fat vegetarian diet. Perhaps he needs to get out into the garden to test his model.

Regards,
Mike

Heritage Wheat Conservancy - http://growseed.org/

CJinVT wrote:
Can anyone recommend a different tree for living fences and/or speak about experiences with cattle and BL?

Osage Orange

Mine are not at that stage yet.  The extent of my first hand knowledge is limited.  The germination rate seems to be very high - over 80%.  At 24" high, the spikes are already an inch long and hard.

Regards,
Mike