Cristo Balete

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since May 23, 2015
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Long-time Permaculturist
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In the woods, West Coast USA
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UPDATE:

I think we're going into our 10th year of a vermicomposting toilet system, as pictured above, and here is some update information.  I see some other threads are not using dirt for the worms.  I guess the wood chips work, but I have no experience with that.  I have plenty of dirt, though!  

What and Why:

Vermicomposting in a Container involves dealing with the contents in the container. that flows out the out-flow pipe, in some manner.  It is still black water even if the worms have worked on it.  You'll have to look at it from time to time.  You'll have to shovel it out and haul it away in buckets if it doesn't get the proper maintenance and packs up.  

If you don't want to deal with effluent and maintenance then this may not be the method for you.

Worms can freeze, drown and bake if it's too hot in a container, which is easy to do.  In some places where this can be a problem, the containers need to be buried but accessible.  Worms live underground where it's about 50F/10C, that's what you want to achieve.

Because lots of liquids are flushed through this system, it's not the same as a worm box with paper and kitchen scraps.

Our pipes are 3"/7.5 cm.  (the drawing shows 2", but that has changed.)  Codes call for larger pipes, but we haven't had trouble with 3".

Where The Effluent Goes:

One person in Northern California had a vast network of buried drain pipes around redwood trees that the effluent went into.  Redwood trees need hundreds of gallons of water a day, which they would already be getting, but he never had trouble sending the effluent around these trees.  I don't know how he kept the roots out of the pipes, but maybe there's info on that somewhere.

Reed beds are a possibility.  Reeds are rampant growers and roots can use the effluent and "clean" up the liquid, transform it from what it was.  I'm not a biologist, but I bet there's still plenty of bacteria in reed bed water, but it's clearer than it was.  

Reeds grow very fast in a container filled with wood chips, and need to be root-pruned probably once a year or they will get too full and burst the container.  The reed beds don't smell bad.  Even frogs hang out there sometimes, so it works for them. Some small communities in Canada use reed beds on a larger scale.  Reed beds are also good for grey water.  We have used them and they work well.

The effluent from a vermicomposting toilet might go into pipes that go into an orchard, or it might go into buckets that then go into an orchard, or a dehydrator, or  a septic setup, or a reed bed, any number of things, but hopefully not out on the ground in general.  

Never around annual vegetables that grow close to the ground like lettuce, tomatoes, zucchini, kale, parsley, etc.   You don't want that kind of bacteria on or near your annual vegetables.  You don't want it where pets and kids might wander through it.  It's not fair for wild animals, either, to get it on their feet or their noses from sniffing it.

It shouldn't be uphill from any water source, lake, river, creek, spring or well.  And that is true of grey water as well.

Why We Use Vermicomposting:

We use a vermicomposting toilet because we like one traditional, functioning, clean toilet for use inside, without odor, and without extra ingredients that need to be stored inside.  In case someone needs to throw up they have a decent place in an emergency to do it.  Not everyone is on the same page about composting toilets, so they have access to a regular toilet.  

Our Experience With Composting Toilets Inside:

We do have composting toilets outside near our large garden and the area we usually picnic in.  They are in outhouses with lots of ventilation and extra room for storing the compost or bags of ground-up wood chips.

Even though the composting toilets are in outhouses they still get huge numbers of gnats during a certain time of year.  We've tried all the methods and still get them, so they don't work in a full-time location inside for us.

Even though composting toilets have the rep of "smelling like the forest," there is an undercurrent of ...you know... something else, and unless it's well vented, it's not that great to have it inside.

We've had trouble storing composting materials for an inside toilet because they have had bugs that then get loose inside, particularly ladybugs  (who knew?)  

It's a chore to keep amassing compost to add to it.

We don't like to buy peat moss (not good for the peat moss bogs of the world,) and bags of ground up wood chips or compost keep increasing in price.  The stuff tends to fall out on the floor and it's just another chore to clean up after it.

Our System For The Last  Ten Years:

The heavy-sided container is on a concrete pad (dry-pour works well to make a concrete pad,) or concrete stepping stones formed into a pad.  The container becomes very heavy and needs support.  The out-flow end is slightly lower so gravity flow sends all the extra effluent down to that end, and it drains between flushes, won't get a pool of liquid in the bottom that could drown worms.

The vermicomposting container doesn't get more than half full
  - if it does, then either it needs more wet dirt to encourage the worms to reproduce and survive, or it needs more liquid going through it, or a bigger container depending on how many people use it.

The contents should never get so full that it blocks the in-flow pipe coming from the house, which should be in the upper third of the wall of the container, obviously!!

1/2 of the contents should be dirt for most of the year - add wet dirt accordingly
 -   For two of us I add one large bucket of wet dirt twice a year, pouring it on either side of the in-flow pipe so the incoming liquids don't wash out the dirt..   The worms will find it.

There needs to be enough liquid to make the contents flow down the out-flow pipe (which is going downhill) where it's been arranged to be dealt with it safely.  We only put toilet flush liquid, kitchen sink liquid with non-laureth sulphate dish soap, shower water (with non-laureth sulphate shampoos,) and bathroom sink water.  Toothpaste hasn't caused a problem.

We've bypassed the washing machine water out into grey water lines that go to large, landscape perennial trees because of the high level of soap involved.  We don't use detergent, and it's unlikely worms could live with that in their environment.  We don't want detergent in our soil anyway.

How It Looks When It's Working:

Inside the container it should look like a writhing, seething, moving well-mixed mass that is sloppy but not liquid.  Worms can drown, so it shouldn't be too full of liquid, and adding wet dirt keeps the balance.   You want to keep most of the worms in the box.   You may or may not see worms, but those guys are what are making the writhing movement, and that means there's enough of them.

When It Goes Wrong:

If it's not writhing, and it's packed, then there isn't enough dirt and liquid, and probably most of the worms are dead.   Worms won't go into just the contents.  Worms need dirt.  

Without the worms doing the job, the contents will pack and block up the outflow pipe, and you'll be spending the day shoveling it into buckets and hauling those heavy buckets off somewhere safe, and snaking the outflow pipe.  So a little maintenance once or twice a year will save you.

In Canada some friends of ours use a big septic pit under the bathroom or outhouse filled with worms that can retreat under the frostline in winter.  Septic pits are illegal in a lot of other places, so check with your local codes.   A big pit with worms may not need as much maintenance as a container because the pit is surrounded by dirt for them.

When It Gets Out of Balance:

If the container gets out of balance, packs up, and has to be shoveled....

It's still full of bacteria you don't want to come in contact with.

- Wear old rubber boots,
    -  use rubber gloves or disposable vinyl gloves (but they tear easily),
    - wear old pants

Don't wear a good hat that could fall off your head when you bend over to adjust something and it falls into the container!  If that happens, rinse it off with a hose immediately.  Been there, done that!

Don't have cuts or blisters on your hands
Don't touch nose, eyes, mouth, ears until you have cleaned up with plenty of soap and water, and hand sanitizer if possible.

Have at least two large buckets for hauling

Use a septic line snake, or a disposable stick to stir up the blockage in the pipe while you add water to inside the container near the out-flow pipe to flush it out.

Rocks inside the container around the out-flow pipe help give you access to that pipe and stop any contents that starts to pack up from blocking that pipe.  Use rocks that are bigger than the outflow pipe, but not so big and heavy they will make the container bulge sideways as the stuff fills in around them.  The rocks aren't foolproof, but they help.  The gaps between the rocks should be large enough to let liquidy contents flow past them and out the out-flow pipe, but not so big that too much of the contents flows down the pipe and fills it up.    

Bricks are not a good idea because they create a barrier that the liquid contents cannot get past.  Chunks of concrete and rocks with odd shapes leave good-sized gaps when stacked akimbo.

Occasionally worms are washed out of the container but it's not a problem.  If you see dead worms being washed out of the container, check the contents, make sure there's enough dirt, and that it's liquidy enough to flow out.

Install a Y flush-out fitting with a removeable cap on the Y part, in the out-flow pipe a couple feet from the container so you can snake back up into it if something goes wrong.

Cleaning Up:

When you're done, clean thoroughly shovel, buckets, boots, and septic line snake..  Throw away the sticks.  Use lots of soap and water on your hands and arms,  and use hand sanitizer.  Don't wash your pants in the same laundry load as other clothing.

It will take the worms a few weeks to reproduce and get things in balance again.  



2 hours ago
There are perforated drain pipes that are medium 4" to large that could be buried at the level you would dig a swale down to, 8" to a foot?  Not sure how deep you want to catch water at. Pipe will divert it in whatever way you direct the pipe.  It's all underground so it wouldn't affect mowing.

It's a bit of a project, but it might well be worth it since they would last a very long time underground, would help with erosion, specifically direct water to a tank or pond or irrigation ditches where you don't mow.

The least expensive option, the coil of black pipe below, has this description from Home Depot.  (I have nothing to do with HD, other than they probably get a quarter of my income!  ha!)  I have this kind of drain pipe, and the only issue is that the gophers on the West Coast will eat through this, I don't know why.

4 in. x 100 ft. Singlewall Perforated Drain Pipe - The Home Depot
About This Product Advanced Drainage Systems, Inc. (ADS) 4 in. x 100 ft. Singlewall Perforated Drain Pipe provides superior strength while its high density polyethylene (HDPE) construction allows the corrugated pipe to be a flexible, light weight solution.


3 hours ago
Dennis, I have not had onions work.  In fact, the voles have chewed chunks out of them as they sit on top of the soil.  They also went after some walking onions that were expensive, so I had to put chicken wire around those.

The latest plant I've just discovered gophers and voles leave alone is mustard, field mustard and salad mustard, which is pretty prolific in its ability to reseed.  Even traditional farmers on the West Coast will use mustard as a soil amendment between crops, so when they turn it under it adds biomass to the soil.  The salad mustard I got in a mix does well in a hot greenhouse and doesn't instantly go to seed, makes a nice, mild salad.

I also catch lots of mice and voles in a spinning can suspended over a 5 gallon bucket.  See below.  A wide stick leads up to the top edge of the bucket.  The can is suspended on a piece of wire coat hanger that reaches from side to side, and is at least 3 inches down from the top so they have to commit to the can when they jump from the edge.  It's a soda or beer can with holes just big enough to fit the wire through so it can spin freely and evenly.   There's a touch of peanut butter on the ramp stick and on the can that lures them in.   These are on YouTube, and some people plaster the can with peanut butter, but that isn't necessary.  Critters have such a good sense of smell a dab the size of your fingernail will tempt them.  Even the residual scent of the peanut oil will lure others if the first one ate it on the ramp.

Beware of small critters, baby birds, lizards falling into the 5 gallon bucket, so put it under a low patio side table.  Putting it where it's protected is also a big lure for a rodent because it isn't as exposed climbing the ramp.

I've used this style of bucket to catch the rodents trying to nest in the truck engine, too.  The bucket slides right under the truck bed in front of the back tire on the driver's side, so I don't forget it's there and drive over it!  I also spray the hard parts of the engine (no electrical parts) with peppermint and clove oils mixed in water, a little dish detergent, in a 30 ounce spray bottle.  
I had a real problems with adding plants the honeybees like, especially thistles.  They flocked to it, and wandered around on the floating bits and wouldn't leave.  They looked drugged.  Then I tried making it in  garbage can with a lid, and they managed to find a tiny place to squeeze under the lid and got stuck and died.  I lifted the lid and there were at least 100 dead honeybees trapped in there.

Since then I just chop and drop the weeds and stick to plain compost tea.
2 months ago
Dennis, just to be sure, the garlic and other plant deterrents only work down at the tunneling level.  Any voles that are above ground won't be deterred by garlic/asparagus/daylilies as far as chewing trunks or leaves and stems.

I just found the voles had circled the chicken wire basket I put Shasta Daisies in, exposed the top couple of inches to the air, so I filled that in with 1/2" rough rock (not round, slippery rocks.) and that stops them from circling, but wouldn't stop them from chewing.   I check those rocks every couple weeks by tapping with the end of the shovel to see if they've tunneled underneath the rocks.  Mostly they don't fall, but if they do, I just add more.
Another temporary vole deterrant is a scare bird.   The bright yellow beak, and yellow eyes, and flat black body (a type of falcon) cut out of an old plastic lid for a tote container, hanging from the ceiling on a string.  I've made these out of cardboard but they don't do well in the rain.

I changed one of the greenhouses into a chicken wire covered greenhouse for greens that can't do the heat,  and hang the scare bird from the ceiling on a string where the breeze moves it around.  The Ravens can see it when the eyes are facing upwards, and flew over the greenhouse very low in pairs double checking on this enemy, so they believe it.  After a week or 10 days they seem to have relaxed a bit because the scare bird is in a "cage" and isn't loose in their territory.

So to deter rodents in general, in the hot greenhouse with the eyes facing down,  hang it on an S hook and string in different locations on the ceiling every few days since there isn't any wind in there.   If it's outside it can upset your real predators, owls, other falcons, hawks, so take it down at night or cover it up.  

Until I catch the voles and mice, the scare bird helps make them hesitant.








According to this quick research, rubber is okay if exposed to sunlight.  Although I don't store anything garden equipment or tools outside in the sun.  I'm really tired of buying them over and over again!

I did not know about silicone rubber, though.  Interesting.

(I have no connection to either of these websites, it's just info.)

https://www.timcorubber.com › blog › archive › what-is-the-best-rubber-for-uv-resistance
What is the Best Rubber for UV Resistance? - Timco Rubber
Apr 3, 2024This versatile, cost-effective rubber material is known for its durability, which includes excellent weathering resistance, including an ability to withstand regular exposure to sunlight. Silicone Silicone rubber is one of the most popular materials for high temperature environments, and it can help you beat more than just heat.

siliconemakers.com

https://siliconemakers.com › uv-resistant-silicone-rubber-products-long-lasting-performance-under-the-sun
UV Resistant Silicone Rubber Products: Long-Lasting Performance Under ...
The UV-resistant silicone Rubber is a great invention, making life easier by utilizing its ultraviolet-resistance elements
2 months ago
I will have to say, as a person who's lived their whole life on the West Coast of the US, where most of it is one step above a desert, I have never once had a swale get even 2 inches of water in it, let alone slow water down.  

There are no monsoons here.  There may be two months where there could possibly, may be heavy enough rain where you'd think rain water might run along the ground but it just doesn't here.    We don't get any rain from the end of May through the beginning of December, so those swales sit there doing nothing for most of the year except make it hard on a wheelbarrow and a car.

If it's a drought year there's no rain in general, let alone trying to catch it and divert it.

I've almost sprained an ankle a few times stepping into one, either in the dark, backing up or losing my balance, so they add a level of danger for a person living in a rural situation who relies on having all limbs working 24/7 in order to do the physical labor needed to live in such a place.    Swales just don't do anything here.

We also have to alter other versions of Permaculture in general; hugel mounds into hugel trenches, tactics to deal with gophers and voles, it's too dry for cardboard/straw mulch, and it just makes a safe and hidden place for rodents, etc.  

So the type of rainfall is a very important factor, how many months of rainfall there are, and the type of soil, location.  
2 months ago
If you are going to fill a raised bed, plants need soil, so just woodchips will suppress growth until it's completely broken down, which could take years.

The trouble I have with heavy clay soil is that even if there is rodent wire at the bottom of the raised bed, voles/gophers, digging rodents can still dig around under that wire and create air tunnels that roots go into.  I can't get under the raised beds to stop that, so I've stopped using them.  Digging rodents also are brilliant at using any stick or board as a solid roof over their entrance, and they just go to town under there.

You used the word "mulch," so I'm guessing wood chips are just for the top.  That has worked well for me.  The smaller the chips, the better.

If you are going to put branches or logs in the raised bed, be sure the wood at the bottom is rotten enough to break with your foot, and doesn't fill up more than 1/4 of the height of the bed.  If you put another layer of really rotten wood about 4 inches down from the top, make sure it's pithy and you can break it with your hands.  Then the plant roots can get into it and get the moisture.

Large, thick layers of wood chips on a path are good because roots also go under the paths and can benefit from the decaying wood.

Piles of wood chips definitely get hot!!  
2 months ago
I recently bought a garden hose that was no-kink.  Sounds handy enough.

What didn't show on the packaging until I got it home, cut it off, and read the inside, was you have to Wash Your Hands every time you use it!  Seriously?  Why didn't that show on the outside before I bought the thing?  Why would they make a garden hose that could easily be used for vegetables out of something that is too dangerous to handle???

I did find a rubber hose, the only one that didn't have a Danger warning on it.  It does kink, but being careful and unwinding it slowly lessens that.
2 months ago