Kevin Roberts

I agree that some type of olive would be a good idea, at least as a nutrient accumulator, so thank you for the suggestion. I don't know if animals will eat raw olive i.e. if it can be used as a food source, but I have always wondered if olives will fall off the tree and chickens or pigs will eat them and get a high dose of fat. Can you dry olives? I've only seen them from the freeway driving through Northern California. Having oil from on site would be pretty amazing. So, there was this farmer from Cali that moved to southern Oregon about 10 years ago. He reportedly spent well over $1mil on a massive olive orchard. They were the cold hardiest variety he could get, supposedly to 5 deg F. Well, the first winter was one of the coldest we've had, and it got down to 10 degrees. His elevation was about 1600, so a little ways up off the valley floor (1200), and being they were more sensitive the first year, he lost every single tree. Sold the property and moved away. No one around here will buy olive trees, or carry olive trees at a nursery, as far as I have seen. In theory, they would do fine, though. I have seen a few people with outdoor pomegranates, though. People around here just feel like, this is Oregon, we aren't subtropical, so none of that stuff should grow around here. It doesn't fit the decor. Heh, I'd love to have a "tropical" area, and fully intend to do that once we get a little ways in and can confirm where the hot pockets actually are.

I expect that we will have enough pond and swale or hugel that there won't really be any standing water eventually. I think we will be making raised beds to plant in, but I don't know that it would really be anything like chinampas. Yeah, not that much torrential water; it is usually pretty spread out. 1" in a day is almost unheard of. It flooded a little in late 1996/7 and people still talk about it. Much worse in other parts of the PNW.

I think with heavy equipment you might be able to dig a cystern at the top with or without other earthworks and use it for drip irrigation.

Can you expound on that? I don't quite follow how I would utilize a cistern to drip irrigate. I like the concept of having 5-10 gallon clay pots with a small hole in the base (I seem to recall unglazed don't need a hole...) that can be filled once a week or so to "drip" irrigate trees. Are you thinking something like that? Is a cistern a better use of energy/resources than a clay pot? My first thought is, I can move/replace a clay pot. Eventually, I won't really want to be watering the trees, right?

I love the idea of Pampas grass, was planning to put that between trees on the northern berm. Possibly it will work its way to other places around the farm later, as I have read it can be a forage plant. Any idea what types of animals prefer to eat pampas? Also, I read that vetiver is hardy to zone 7, so I wonder why you don't use it in Arizona? I am tempted to get some to try out because I like vetiver. I didn't even consider growing it until you mentioned it, heh.

We got 4 yards of fir wood shreddings and chopped up a cottonwood and started carrying it over to the hugel area. Right when we were digging an outline, a neighbor came over and started asking what we were up to. I let my buddy explain that he was indeed a "hippy" (this is a hotspot for rednecks) and was wanting to grow some of his own food to gain some freedom back. Well, after a few minutes he was on the phone with his brother ready to bring over an excavator to make short work of our digging project. He just needed my buddy to hang some doors when he has time. Good trade. Neighbors are a very valuable resource.

TJ,

That was a super helpful post, thanks. It got me thinking about maybe being able to attack the hardpan more effectively in late Spring once/if it has softened. We will definitely make an attempt. I really enjoyed rereading that Gert and Ferd article.

I had looked at the Soil Data study a couple times, I would have put some of that info in the original post but I couldn't select the text in the pdf and I didn't want to type it out.

The caliche info was helpful. We don't have that. In some ways, it seems what we have is worse. I will get in there periodically over the next 6 months and see if it has a soft season.

I will try to change my perspective on the stones. I know the minerals are helpful, and I want to work with them to make airwells and herb spirals and maybe even terrace the inside of a hugelbed sun scoop. If they were in soil and not clay, it would be a whole lot easier to separate them. I feel like a lot of water will be required, so maybe winter is the time to separate out the rocks.

My friend is a contractor so he will be bringing in the money and is going to rather spend to buy resources most of the time. If it takes 10 hours to shred 2 yards of wood, and he can buy 2 yards for 40 bucks (incl. delivery fee), no brainer; 10x more efficient. The shredder is using fuel also, and the lumber yard shredder is way more efficient than my 8hp one.

Figs grow here no problem, pomegranates too. Olives are another story, and I don't think he would want an olive. Bottom line, typical low is 25 deg, 19 deg is the 10 year low. Record low is 8 deg.

We will be hoarding organic matter, no question, and water is an absolute scarcity in summer, so non exposed water is a great tip. A duck pond is a strong desire however. We will shade it and protect it from wind to minimalize evaporation. Just gotta figure out the site work knowing we can only go down 2 feet.

Just found out today we have access to his in-laws 15 year old piles of cow and rabbit manure! That will make for a good start!

I am going to link to a new thread once we start actually working on stuff tomorrow. This one will stay for my earthworks questions, but the overall project I will put pics and stuff in a separate thread.

Thanks again for all the encouragement and tips so far everyone. I don't know why I waited so long to be an active member of these forums. I guess I didn't want to just ask theoretical questions with no where to try it out on.

Wayne,

As was mentioned in the first post, this layer of hardpan is several hundred feet deep. I checked well logs in the area, of which there are precious few because of the situation; none of the logs got past the rock layer (320' was the deepest I saw). This area was largely pasture land and marsh until city sewer and water came along. I would guess basically no homes 50 years ago (in this specific 1-2 sq. mi. area).

I feel like I should know what the ME is, but I'd love some help on that.

I am taking soil depth seriously, if for no other reason, all the bigger deciduous trees in the area are dead, dying, or have already fallen over.

Unless someone suggests otherwise, I think we will make large berms and hugelkultur beds for most if not all our trees. It is going to end up being WAY more earthworks up front and sooner than we would have liked, unfortunately, but alas, I don't want to delay too much.

Planting a nitrogen fixing tree/shrub as a pioneer would be a good thing for this situation if I never let it get very big ... right? I could use those for poles and coppice...

Eric, I will pursue the fungal questions on your other thread, thanks for the link. I wouldn't want mods feeling like this post needs to be moved.

Wayne, that is more what I was expecting people to say... Not a downer, I think a reality check here is appropriate. Is this something you personally dealt with? Your caliche is essentially the same as what we have, from what I can tell. How much soil did you end up having under your trees? Did you have some fail due to drainage? There ARE trees that grow in this soil, but the most successful, and only ones that get over 20', seem to be evergreen. Anything that broadens out becomes a sail. Well, if you have a suggestion on a range of how much soil would be needed for adequate drainage of fruit and nut trees, that would be the specific info I am most interested in. Or, just knowing that, in this kind of situation, such and such a number is definitely NOT enough, depending on soil type etc.

I can't help but think of bonsai trees, and potted trees in like 20 gal containers. They can fruit if their size is kept proportional. Obviously we want better quality food than that ... Maybe we will just experiment and find the answers if they aren't forthcoming. Seeds are cheap

I am all about the mushrooms, so I would love more info on that. Are winecaps better or easier than some other species in woodchips? I have intermediate level experience with mushrooms. I have easy access to Douglas fir chips mostly. Not sure if any mills around here produce anything else. Also, fir shreddings are a lot cheaper, $15/yd vs $35/yd, and they would decompose far quicker. I assume that wouldn't be a bad thing right?

Digging fertile holes and backfilling with manure looks like what, precisely?

Since this was posted in earthworks because I thought that was my main problem, I wanted to discuss a pond idea. We have access to a skidsteer with tracks. If I just scraped with a skidsteer to push dirt to the sides of a theoretically 2000sqft area to a potential depth of 2', what would be the best way to seal the side sloping parts? How big would the sides be ideally? 6-8' high, and 6-8' wide? The bottom would potentially be sealed, and if not I understand some techniques to achieve that, but would I need to import non rocky soil that is high in clay to keep it from leaking? Since the soil is fairly high in clay, would it be viable to just compact it as much as possible and hope for the best? I.e. at that point can gleying or pigs or whatever else be utilized since any potential leaks will be small and the structure will be firm enough? Wish I knew how to ask this better.

Eric,

Thank you for the welcome and the quick response. There is a strong sense in my friend of wanting as little to do as possible of daily chores with as little encroachment on the neighbors as possible, so clumping bamboo is necessary.

I had not considered just bringing in woodchips, and no soil at all. I realize there might be concerns in the sourcing of the soil/compost. Wouldn't we want soil,compost and woodchips? We are intending to turn about 1000 sq. ft. into garden this coming season. A large part of that will be hugelkultur on the north border, but I can't put the soil from the property on that, let alone the areas near the ground we want to plant veggies. Also, can I really plant into woodchips? I understand you said rotten woodchips make a fertile bedding material ... won't that take a few seasons to even begin? There are a few dead trees on the property which will work for the hugelbeds we make this year, but in coming years, there are not really any trees in the vicinity which can be utilized. Even that will have to be imported. If we want to plant something in the next couple months, how could we not import soil? I think maybe the area we want to use next year could use a few loads of chips this year, so we don't have to work through this again next winter.

As far as something to break up the hardpan, I would defer to anyone else to suggest what kind of plant might be able to do that (literally think like sanstone at the beach).

1) What benefit could I or a plant gain from drilling into hardpan?
2) Are there any tree species anyone might be able to suggest that would like to have wet feet 6 months of the year in zone 7, and spread roots wide enough and grow short enough to work in this soil?
3) How many feet of soil do I want under fruit trees to keep them happy?

I think I have an idea what we could do in an ideal situation, but this isn't my property, and I am not very willing to suggest drastic delays for the sake of principle. I am having a hard time seeing how importing gobs of soil isn't better than gobs of woodchips. Perhaps you are thinking of a specific reason on which you could elaborate? I may just be at a lower level and not understand an implied nuance in your suggestion. I've not taken a PDC, and have never met a real live permie. Thanks again, and looking forward to the conversations to be had.

Greetings permies,

I am trying to help a friend with a site design. I have slowly infected him with permaculture over the years, and he bought 4 acres in 2018 and now he is letting me assist on some design aspects. He is excited and doesn't know much about any of this, and I don't have hardly any experience, but a lot of information. As far as zones, and sectors, and species, we will figure out something for that separately. I have run into a road block which I have never heard of being addressed in the literature/videos I have as yet discovered. Anyway, about the property and the problem I have:

This is a 2:1 rectangular property around 400m or 1300ft altitude with almost no variation. This property is in southern Oregon, in White City. This property is situated in between the two places discussed in the following excerpts:

Much of the DWA is a grass covered plain known locally as the Agate Desert. The desert landform is described as mounded prairie, forming a pattern of low mounds and depressions. The desert is underlain by a layer of cemented gravel, or hardpan, which causes shallow pools, called vernal pools, to form in the depressions during the rainy season.

The Agate Desert is an alluvial fan created by glacial deposits of coarse debris. Agates reach the surface by action of physical forces and pocket gophers. A shallow layer of clay loam overlies cemented hard pan creating patterned ground with mounds and vernal pools. Pools fill in winter and spring from 48 cm (~19") of annual rainfall. Summers are hot and dry.

When my friend built his house, he had to mound dirt on top of his water lines to pass inspection (24" requirement), because the hardpan started around 18". In digging the poles for a barn, he hit hardpan at 24". I had noticed when he moved to the property all the trees, which looked to be 20-30 years old, were dead standing and pretty knarly. This is a very windy area because there are almost no trees, because they can't get deep roots. I've heard the power goes out in this city very often because larger trees fall over during every windstorm.

Looking at well logs in the area, there doesn't seem to be any soil deeper than 2', and the hardpan goes down to over 320' (the deepest well I saw). Well loggers call it hard or fractured claystone, sandstone, or cobblestone. The most water from these wells was 5gpm.

Speaking of water, as is mentioned in the above excerpts from those websites, this property will have a large "vernal pool" aka no drainage from later Fall through early Summer.

The soil itself is ~30% clay, ~5-10% organic matter, humus etc. and close to 60% stone of every size from fishtank sized pebbles to 5" stones.

The storm winds come from the Pacific Coast (west) and the seasonal wind is from the north.

The original plan was to have a berm along the north, and bamboo on the west (east/west sides being the twice as long sides). Through sheer happenstance, that will probably be a good start. I think that bamboo roots will be able to grow wide enough to allow the 40-50' bamboo to be a valid windscreen and not blow over.

1) What are some issues I might run into with the hardpan?
2) How would you store water?
3)Is a pond off the docket?
4) Is it at all necessary to remove rocks from the current soil?
5) Is the best strategy going to be importing soil and making berms and hugelkultur?
6)Are swales an option because of the poor drainage?

Thanks for any and all ideas.