Greg Payton

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since Jul 13, 2020
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Recent posts by Greg Payton

Looks like he's moved into making actual fabric and trying to figure out the ins and outs of that process and optimization:
3 months ago
Yes, some style of radiator setup and/or pump (probably could do some pretty creative things with the novel gradient opportunities with reducing or eliminating electrical needs even).
6 months ago
@Mike can you explain what you're meaning by carrying a 10lb bag every day? Not seeing reason in your remarks so far... Unless you're talking about having some kind of buckets that you transport. I wouldn't take the PCM to temperature differentials, but rather "bring" the differentials to the PCM...
6 months ago

Kaarina Kreus wrote:So... you need electricity to make this work.
I have none.



Technically I think you could make this without electric, but to do bigger projects it would probably be easier to have some. It might be doable without electric if you make panels and replace them every X cycles (when we figure out if this is months or years or decades)... But I don't see you needing electric if you're using it for clothing and smaller applications, right?
6 months ago
Can't wait to hear back on some of the smaller build stuff!!! I think he's right, this could literally save lives.

And I can't wait to hear back on some of the bigger build stuff!

For the vehicle, whole house / building options, I do believe this might be able to be made to be passed through pipes... Some ideas we might want to think about and discuss more fully as we get our hands around this to see if it might be feasible and better than putting panels/packs in place - I'm sorry if this is going beyond "low tech" options here in some aspects!

1. Microencapsulated PCM Slurry:
  Concept: Encapsulate tiny droplets of the PCM (sodium sulfate solution) within microscopic polymer shells (This reminds me of his ULTRA white paint efforts - might help.).
  Composition: 30-50% microencapsulated PCM particles suspended in a carrier fluid (e.g., water or glycol).
  Estimated additional cost: $10-$20 per liter
 
  Advantages:
  - Remains pumpable at all times
  - Retains most of the PCM's thermal properties
  - Can be circulated through uninsulated pipes in walls, attics, and under roofs for efficient heat transfer
 
  Considerations:
  - Slightly lower overall heat capacity compared to pure PCM
  - May require occasional agitation to prevent settling
  - Carrier fluid choice affects overall system performance

2. Clathrate Hydrate Slurry:
  Concept: Use clathrate hydrates, which are crystalline compounds where water molecules form a cage-like structure around guest molecules.
  Composition: 10-30% clathrate hydrate crystals suspended in water.
  Estimated additional cost: $5-$15 per liter
 
  Advantages:
  - Forms a pumpable slurry
  - High latent heat of fusion
  - Can be designed for specific temperature ranges suitable for various climates
 
  Considerations:
  - May require additives to prevent agglomeration
  - Careful control of formation and melting conditions

3. Nanofluid PCM:
  Concept: Disperse nanoparticles of a phase change material in a base fluid.
  Composition: 1-5% nanoparticles (e.g., paraffin or fatty acid-based - he used paraffin in his previous video on making awesome tarps) in water or glycol.
  Estimated additional cost: $20-$40 per liter
 
  Advantages:
  - Enhanced thermal conductivity for faster heat transfer with building interiors
  - Remains liquid at all times
  - Can be pumped through standard systems integrated into building structures
 
  Considerations:
  - Nanoparticle stability and potential for agglomeration
  - May require surfactants to maintain dispersion

4. Eutectic PCM Mixture:
  Concept: Create a mixture of salts that has a lower melting point than its individual components.
  Composition: Carefully balanced mixture of sodium sulfate, sodium chloride, and possibly other salts.
  Estimated additional cost: $0-$5 per liter
 
  Advantages:
  - Can be designed to remain liquid at room temperature
  - Retains high heat capacity
  - Most cost-effective option for maintaining fluid state
 
  Considerations:
  - May require precise temperature control to prevent crystallization
  - Could potentially separate over time, requiring mixing

Possible mechanical requirements / implementation strategies - obviously the cost is going to be a lot more initially while we bump around to make this work:

1. Circulation System:
  - Design an open-loop (I think this should actually be a closed-loop and I'm thinking wrong due to my exposure to the term in computer system cooling, which I think a lot of folks just have used in my context to mostly mean self built - sorry about the confusion for some who private messaged) system integrated into building structures (walls, attics, under roofs) for direct heat exchange.
  - Use non-insulated, corrosion-resistant piping to maximize heat transfer with the environment.
  - Implement variable flow rates to optimize heat absorption/release based on conditions.
  Estimated cost: $1000-$7000 for a small to medium-sized system...

2. Temperature Regulation Mechanism:
  - Instead of liquefaction, focus on optimizing flow rates and distribution.
  - Use smart valves to direct flow to areas requiring heating or cooling.
  - Implement a predictive control system based on weather forecasts and historical data.
  Estimated additional cost: $500-$2000

3. Refreshing/Regeneration:
  - Design the system with a central reservoir for the PCM fluid.
  - Implement a bypass loop for treatment and rejuvenation of the fluid:
    - Filtration to remove any impurities
    - Potential addition of fresh PCM components to maintain optimal concentration
    - Degassing to remove any absorbed gases that might affect performance
  Estimated additional cost: $300-$2000

4. Monitoring and Control:
  - Install temperature sensors throughout the building and in the PCM system.
  - Implement a control algorithm to manage pumping rates and flow distribution.
  - Integrate with smart home systems for user control and optimization.
  Estimated additional cost: $500-$3000

5. Seasonal Adaptation:
  - For year-round use, consider a dual-loop system with two different PCM fluids optimized for heating and cooling seasons.
  - Use valve controls to switch between loops as needed.
  - Design the system to take advantage of diurnal temperature swings for passive regeneration.
  Estimated additional cost: $1000-$5000

Anyway - I know this is all kinda zany sounding, but I really think there might be some potential. I guess like I said above, we could start small. Maybe make some small aquariums with pumps and try them in various scenarios and then work up?
6 months ago
@Carla I think for your four questions:

1 - To recharge the (65f/18C) cooling packs, they need to be warmed? Or refrigerated/frozen?
Answer: To recharge the cooling packs with a melting point of 65°F (18°C), they need to be cooled below this temperature. The packs absorb heat as they melt, providing cooling. To recharge them, you need to solidify the material again by cooling it below 65°F. This can be done using ground temperature in many regions, as Ben mentioned, or by refrigeration if necessary. The key is to get the temperature below the melting point so that the material can crystallize and be ready to absorb heat again when it melts.

2 - To make them colder, still (like for keeping ice cream frozen for a long drive, or keeping a temp-sensitive food cold, for a hot-day picnic or camping trip), you'd add more table salt?
Answer: Yes, adding more table salt to the mixture would lower the melting point, making the PCM colder. This follows the principle of freezing point depression in solutions. By increasing the concentration of salt, you can create a PCM with a lower melting point, suitable for keeping items colder than the original 65°F formulation. This absolutely would be useful for applications like keeping ice cream frozen or maintaining lower temperatures for food storage during hot weather conditions.

3 - If #2's a yes, any clue as to (based on his same 5C water/1C Sodium sulfate recipe) would the 1/4C = 30° extra cooling stay the same, so that an increase to 1/2C would equal a 60° cooler product, bringing it to 35°, and so on? (This would be perfect, for things you want very cold, but not frozen! )
Answer: While the relationship between salt concentration and freezing point depression isn't perfectly linear, it follows a predictable pattern based on the equation ΔT = Kf * m * i. For Ben's PCM, starting with the original recipe (5 cups water, 1 cup sodium sulfate, 1/4 cup table salt) at 65°F (18°C), we can estimate that doubling the salt to 1/2 cup might lower the temperature to around 52°F (11°C). Further increases would have diminishing effects: 3/4 cup salt might reach ~43°F (6°C), and 1 cup salt approximately 36°F (2°C). However, these are theoretical estimates... and the actual results may vary due to the complex interactions between sodium sulfate and sodium chloride in the solution. The effect is more pronounced at lower concentrations and becomes less effective as you add more salt, potentially affecting the PCM's heat absorption capacity and phase change behavior.

4 - If #3's a yes, any idea at what point on added table salt, you'd reach a point of diminishing return?
Answer: The point of diminishing returns for adding table salt would depend on several factors, including the solubility limit of salt in the solution and the eutectic point of the mixture. Generally, you'd reach diminishing returns when adding more salt no longer significantly lowers the melting point or begins to negatively impact the PCM's performance. This could occur when the solution becomes saturated with salt, or when the increased salt concentration starts to interfere with the crystallization process of the sodium sulfate. To determine this precisely, you'd need to conduct a series of experiments, gradually increasing the salt concentration and measuring the resulting melting point and heat absorption capacity of the PCM.
6 months ago
Regarding the "charge cycles", from what I can tell based on general principles of materials science and the properties of sodium sulfate-based PCMs, Ben's homemade phase change material could potentially last between 500 to 1500 charge cycles before requiring replacement.

This estimate translates to approximately 1.5 to 4 years of daily use... Or if it's cycled less frequently MUCH longer... High-quality commercial inorganic PCMs often claim 1000-5000 cycles.

(
EDIT: I noticed someone in the comments mentioned a much lower cycle limit - perhaps 100-200 cycles... I suppose we need to really look at this more carefully. It shouldn't really drop this fast I don't believe.

If this is true it still isn't bad, but maybe not quite as amazing as hoped?

IDEA: what about making this flowable and REFRESHABLE and putting it in piping around the walls and ceilings/roofs? Maybe it would be liquid enough at a certain flush temperature?
)

If it is not directly exposed to extreme conditions it could be possible to see it lasting far longer.

As far as glycerin goes, after looking at this it seems the sodium sulfate PCM could greatly outperform the glycerin. From what I can tell it could much more effectively maintain a greenhouse at about 64ºF than glycerin could.

Glycerin might be easier to work with and require less maintenance, but I think Ben's PCM is a little more cost effective. My quick calculation showed that:
- Ben's sodium sulfate PCM would cost about $375 - 715 per 55-gallon drum.
- Glycerin would cost about $404 - 865 per 55-gallon drum.
6 months ago
Isn't it though??? I'm so excited!!!

Imagine reworking a house so that you can have panels that open for your walls for maintenance as well as in attic and you use sheets of this to create a huge additional resistance to temperature change.

Additionally utilize the idea from Mike and place barrels of this within a home-integrated greenhouse or simply a sunning area dedicated to collecting heat - or under solar panels - you could implement incredible temperature inertia for your home and nearly remove the need for heating and cooling.

This could be an early "holy grail" for reducing/eliminating needs for forced energy expenditure to heat and cool homes in places where even humidity is high.
6 months ago
Holy crap folks - just started watching this and skipped around. I think I'm about to have an excitement aneurysm... Could this make "thin" earth berms and whole house temperature buffering a thing???

People are saying in the comments this is the most useful YouTube video EVVVVVAAAAAR:
6 months ago
Sorry for the delayed responses. Hay time is very demanding here.

So thanks, everyone, for the fantastic ideas and detailed insights so far. Here’s where I think we stand and some additional thoughts and questions to keep the discussion moving ahead:

Filtration and Airflow: Allergen control is a significant concern, so the balance between filtration and airflow is critical. I'm considering HEPA filters, but I'm worried about the suction required. Does anyone have experience using HEPA filters in a passive system? How did you manage the airflow?

Climate Adaptability: Drying in the Appalachian climate, especially during the humid seasons, can be challenging. The suggestion of using solar-powered fans or integrating a dehumidifier makes sense - but I need to reduce electric to as little as possible. Has anyone had success with passive solar designs, like solar chimneys or greenhouse-type setups, in high humidity areas? I’m particularly interested in how these systems perform in winter. I like the photo above of the "outhouse-like" building. That's pretty neat and the idea might be extrapolable into something larger, at least for a drying area.

Non-Electric Solutions: The hand-cranked wringer idea seems promising for removing excess water before drying. Does anyone recommend a specific model or a DIY solution that’s durable and effective? I'm open to all suggestions, from commercially available options to innovative DIY solutions. It might be worthwhile, for convenience and for when electric is viable, just put a drum "wringer" (like a traditional washing machine, but a spin cycle only) to reduce water content.

Practical Implementation:

1. Prototype Testing: Maybe build a small-scale prototype to test the feasibility of some of these ideas. Any suggestions on key elements to include in this prototype would be helpful. Specifically, how should I set up the airflow system and integrate filtration without compromising on efficiency?

2. Heat Source: For winter, wood heating might be practical, but we couldn't tolerate the smell of wood fire smoke. Maybe this could be reduced through a rocket mass heater with more efficient combustion. I’m thinking about setting up a clothesline in such a construction with heat coming in from either a wood stove or rocket mass heater, but probably will keep the burning area outside of the drying area and thus have the exhaust chimney only pass through the drying area... perhaps similar to what Jay mentioned. Any thoughts on how to optimize this setup to maximize drying capacity without causing a safety hazard?

Additional Questions:

1. Greenhouse Integration:  The idea of a greenhouse for solar heat gain is going to be a big winner for me. What are the best practices for integrating drying racks within a greenhouse? How do I ensure adequate air circulation without letting allergens in? I might integrate earth tubes and basement ventilation to increase the heat gradient differential for some kind of convection flow setup.

2. Moisture Management: For those who have used enclosed porches or similar setups, how do you manage moisture buildup? Any tips on ventilation strategies that have worked well when you especially want to retain / block temperature transfer outside for maximum temperature retention?

3. Energy Resources: I have access to various energy resources (wood, solar, wind, natural gas, biogas (in planning) and maybe hydro (in planning)). How can I best leverage these to create a flexible and efficient drying system that remains mostly non-electric but can use electric power if absolutely necessary? I'm working on setting multiple inputs up to multiplex them into a battery bank for consumption (and probably both separate AC & DC circuits to reduce energy loss for electronics that can directly consume DC).

Again, appreciate the contributions so far and look forward to hearing more about your experiences and ideas.
7 months ago