Jake Steele

Benedict, that is definitely possible, although the plant wants to be a tree and so constantly grows upward and has to be plashed down again. It could be intentional, but Caldwell specifically calls out too wide of spacing as being bad advice that was floating around in his day and lead to the results you see here (gaps at the bottom).

The book is called ‘Caldwell's Treatise on Hedging, History of Hedging: Giving a Complete Theory of Its Culture’ and is free on google books.

Honestly, given the dearth of irl examples and how much work seemed to go into the historical ones (constant maintenance), I’m inclined to try something like Trifoliate Orange and use that as the ‘barbed wire’ between pollarded Osage Orange ‘posts’.

Thanks for sharing Benedict. This is a good example of the different methods, looks like this guy planted a foot or so apart and is clearly not “hog-tight”, something Caldwell mentions in the book as happening if you don’t space them mere inches away. I wonder how dense and strong it is higher up?

GB Spencer what method are you using to stratify and plant?

Hello. As the title says, I’m curious if anyone has actually attempted this and pulled it off (or failed) with results to share. I see tons of people all over the internet saying they are going to start it and then radio silence. I plan to start my own and will be documenting the process to fill this void and be able to share whatever results I get, and I want to know if anyone else has any results-based advice or tips before I get started.

One example of the frustration you get from tons of people having ideas but seemingly nobody actually doing it - the Mother Earth news article you constantly see everywhere is apparently wrong. It tells you to let the shoots grow up and then bend them back into the ground overlapping each other, then next year repeat the other direction, then you’re good. These drawings constantly get shared all over the internet when researching this topic.

Yet I happened to stumble across an obscure old historical treatise from the 1800’s by Caldwell, which says to plant very closely (4 inches apart), then cut the first year’s growth down to 4 inches and then 8 inches the next year, then let it grow up until reaching the desired height and width and then maintaining every year. This would be basically a solid wall of tree and a very different design than the popular drawings you see shared all over.

What makes it even worse though, is many historical sites (say, national park services) will give different advice from Caldwell, with different spacing or cutting heights. Very frustrating!

Osage Orange fencing used to the most popular way of fencing large acreage in the Midwest, so I’m really hopeful that 1) someone knows the ‘right’ way to do it or can explain the differing variations, and 2) someone else has actually done it and can share their success or failure!

There's lots of natural building styles, and it seems many can be done in many places. Some are more suited for a region than others, and I feel this angle can sometimes be glossed over or compensated for with industrial inputs like stabilizers and additives. I am interested in what methods are not only ideal for a region, but can be perpetuated in a low-energy, post-industrial future. So while everything from earthbags and hyperadobe, to strawbales, to earthships is interesting to me, I want to learn something that can be taught and passed down, and will still be being replicated 100 years from now. Or at least, a modern method with transference to a similar historical vernacular building technique.

With that in mind, here is the research I have done on natural building for my region. Hoping others can weigh in on it and add any corrections or their own thoughts.

First, looking at global climate zones. It seems the Southeast US is actually fairly unique as far as how extensive our Humid Subtropical zone is. This is due to the AMOC circulation, which is weakening, so we may actually become more temperate in a warming world, or it will even balance out. But I digress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_subtropical_climate#/media/File:Koppen_World_Map_Cwa_Cfa.png

https://amocscenarios.org/

Second, looking at what the indigenous were doing in our region. It seems we have an even split along the Piedmont, with Creek and Cherokee cultures doing wattle and daub with thatched roofs, and Powhatan culture doing rounded wood longhouses.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GRsXWMdyz63aA932A

Concerningly, this may track with the Coastal Plain to Piedmont transition, and may be telling about what soil type is available per method? Like, maybe the greater sand to clay ratio of the Atlantic Plain is what makes daubing possible? But it only seems like a partial and probably coincidental overlap, and I know that outside the Coastal Plain they were still doing wattle and daub, such as in the Appalachian mountains.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zCumeBNJPkQ1e3ka7

So lastly, taking all this into account, we can look at other cultures around the world for inspiration within the Cfa climate zone. Assuming that wattle and daub with thatched roofing is a technique reflective of the nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyles of the Creek and Cherokee peoples, and that a sedentary, fully settled populace would need to develop more permanent styles of natural building, I think the Hmong people of North Vietnam, and Hakka people of Southeast China, are both good candidates for what could be done in our region. The Hmong and Hakka both make extensive use of Rammed Earth for their natural buildings. Both build with similar materials, with examples that have lasted multiple hundreds of years, keeping cool in summer and warm in winter while surviving extreme weather events. They both use rammed earth walls, natural stone foundations (usually limestone?), structural timber, and clay tiles for roofing.

A tulou is usually a large, enclosed and fortified earth building, most commonly rectangular or circular in configuration, with very thick load-bearing rammed earth walls between three and five stories high and housing up to 800 people. Smaller interior buildings are often enclosed by these huge peripheral walls which can contain halls, storehouses, wells and living areas, the whole structure resembling a small fortified city.[3]

The fortified outer structures are formed by compacting earth, mixed with stone, bamboo, wood and other readily available materials to form walls up to 6 feet (1.8 m) thick. Branches, strips of wood and bamboo chips are often laid in the wall as additional reinforcement. The result is a well-lit, well-ventilated, windproof and earthquake-proof building that is warm in winter and cool in summer.[3] Tulous usually have only one main gate, guarded by 4–5-inch-thick (100–130 mm) wooden doors reinforced with an outer shell of iron plate. The top level of these earth buildings has gun holes for defensive purposes.

I think the Hmong "Trinh tuong" houses make the most sense for an individual or single family to emulate, but the Hakka's Fujian Tulous are very interesting for any groups and may be the more common arrangement for future generations, given societal stresses from declining global energy returns and climate change causing a re-emphasis on communal and mutualistic living.

Hmong:

1. https://en.vietnamplus.vn/rammed-earth-houses-a-cultural-heritage-of-hmong-people-in-ha-giang-post312255.vnp

2. https://en.vietnamplus.vn/nung-ethnic-hamlet-attracts-tourists-with-traditional-rammed-earth-houses-post280290.vnp

3. https://en.vietnamplus.vn/rammed-earth-houses-unique-architectural-identity-of-ha-nhi-people-post188713.vnp

4. https://www.vietnam.vn/en/kien-truc-nha-trinh-tuong-mai-am-duong-cua-nguoi-dao-tien-o-cao-bang

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people#/media/File:HouseBuildingInNorthernVietnam.jpg

Hakka:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian_tulou#Architecture

2. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1113/

3. https://www.chinahighlights.com/xiamen/attraction/tulou.htm


Here are some more in depth overviews of the Fujian Tulou traditional building techniques:

1. (PDF link in text) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351978920307952

2. https://www.sensesatlas.com/fujian-tulou-the-hakka-walled-villages/

3. https://archeyes.com/fujian-tulou-the-resilient-and-communal-hakka-walled-villages/

4. https://www.mdpi.com/2075-5309/14/7/1915

Some ideas for alternatives:

1a. It seems the limestone foundation is to protect against flooding and water resting against the rammed earth walls, which is about the only thing that would degrade them, and could render them unstable quite quickly. With proper site design and drainage, perhaps this risk could be mitigated and the rammed earth portion could extend down to the ground? A migrating people group can intentionally move next to a river or potential quarry site with lots of suitable stones, private landowners have less options.

1b. If not, or in addition to this, could one use wood ash in the firing process for low-fired clay bricks to make them waterproof, and use that as the foundation instead? I am pretty sure he essentially makes roman concrete or fly bricks here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP0t2MmOMEA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG6nzrksbPQ

Or even: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9irICRnszOc

2. I wonder if bamboo could be used structurally in place of some of the internal timbers? Either group probably would have tried that if it was viable, but perhaps (without looking into range maps) they didn't have access to the right species for construction. Even if the beams and columns would still need to be wood, I wonder if the rafters and purlins for the roof could be made of bamboo. From reading some old permies threads on it, it seems bamboo can be made (with a long soak in water) to be as or more rot resistant and strong when compared to oak. Pine seems to be the wood of choice for the Tulou at least, so this could maybe be an upgrade?

https://permies.com/t/56799/build-bamboo

3. Likewise, the Hmong "Trinh tuong" house pictures have examples of both thatched and clay tiled roofs that have essentially become living roofs, with moss growing on them. I'm imagining this adds to the insulation and increases resistance to weathering, though could be wrong. Could this be intentionally cultivated, whether with moss or another species that gives an edible yield?

4. The above 4) Hmong section contains some of the apparent issues with their style of housing (though may just be lack of maintenance, hard to tell). I think the Tulou design, being open to the inside and with high windows for cross-ventilation, may address these. If one was building a single house, it's possible you could replicate this with a 'mini-Tulou' that is made courtyard house style, with a thick perimeter wall, 2-4 internal buildings/rooms, and a large open-air middle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtyard_house

5. Lastly, rammed earth is obviously quite labor intensive. For a village coming together, this is no big deal, but not so for an individual or small family (especially if wage labor takes up the majority of ones time). In terms of modern methods, what style would be best to replicate similar outcomes and some transferable skill learning as rammed earth? I am guessing hyperadobe here, and perhaps reclaimed sheet metal for the roof. Skillwise, one would still have to learn to make the forms and the tamping process for rammed earth, making and firing the clay tiles, and working with roundwood for the framing. But the outcome would at least be similar and give one an idea to go off of while slowly picking up the 'real thing' on the side, to be able to teach and pass to others.

Hopefully this is helpful to someone! Any thoughts are appreciated.

Yep Anne, seems like we are on the same page then

It seems like a lot of work for sure Jane compared to just cooking them (though this is an advantage against pests who also won’t bother eating through all that water and fiber for the starch), but I don’t think it would be all that bad once you grate them up. After that it’s just time for settling in the water. And then you have a super calorie store that never degrades or goes bad! Idk, the idea is just super neat to me.

Thanks Anne. What’s special about these is that they are hybrids of Queensland arrowroot, canna edulis, and a few other species. They have lots of vigor and adaptability to various climates. I’m trying to get more of them now while they are still in the F1 and F2 generations.

Jane, if you do get your hands on some be sure to try out processing them for flour. That’s why they are so exciting to me, the idea of a tuber crop that can survive drought, wildfire, whatever and just keep growing away year after year… and then the starch will store for literally ever, and is twice as energy dense as grain! Sorry, nerding out a bit haha. I really think they could be a staple crop of the future.

https://zeroinputagriculture.wordpress.com/2019/10/21/tools-and-techniques-canna-flour/

https://zeroinputagriculture.wordpress.com/2020/07/24/plant-profile-canna/#:~:text=Canna%20has%20a%20mere%2010,for%20transportation%20and%20storage%20space.

This is the old blog, he’s on substack now, but really useful overview of the process.

I really like this guy’s hybrid canna crop, and the idea of a novel climate-resilient staple for extracting pure starch, but it’s really hard to find anyone with the seeds outside of Australia.

I did find someone who was growing it here in the US and got some mailed to me, but was curious if there was anyone else growing it? I would appreciate a greater amount of seed diversity.