alin ardelean

Rachel Lindsay wrote:
This heartfelt comment sent me to your website. Wow! It's amazing! Thanks for all that you've done--that's so beautiful!

Rachel, can you please point me to Jim's website? I would love to check it out

Jim Fry wrote:Before you start planning any arrangement or design, you must account for what is on either side of your land. If someone is mono-cropping next to you, and they use pretty much any conventional farming spray, you're probably screwed. If they are upwind of you, you're probably definitely screwed. If ground water from their land crosses your land as natural runoff in a heavy rain, and they are using chemical fertilizer, ditto same as spray drift. With such a narrow piece of land, you are fairly utterly dependent on what your neighbors do. You can make a very pretty narrow, to walk thru. But there are real questions about how free any of it will be from chemicals and other such dreck, if the next-door neighbors use that stuff. ~~And then the other problem of a longer-term nature. If the land next to you gets developed (or already is) and houses sprout everywhere, those house children (and pets) will most likely see your green space as a nice playground. If that's what you want, that's fine. But if your aim is to grow carrots, well that could be problematic.

I've lived on the same farm for 70+ years. When I was young, our Township was all farms and farmers. I learned a good bit leaning over the back fence, talking with the older guy next door, when we were both out plowing. Then the freeway came, and all those farms are gone. We are the last. Corn fields are now "mansions" i.e.: big stupid brick piles. We hold the high ground in our county, and everything is downhill from us. But I still often wonder, when will all those houses and all those ChemLawn yards, and all that water usage, affect us.

I'm just suggesting that before you get too far into whatever you end up doing with that land, you think long and hard on what you imagine will be next to you in 5 years, ten years, ... or 70 like me. For me, I wish my parents had chosen land a whole lot farther away from people and their ways. I've spent a lot of years making this place beautiful, but when I'm gone, will it (horribly) just turn into just another McMansion. My children will have to live with that. I suppose I won't.

Jim, many thanks for your reply and for your time. Besides the valuable points that you've raised, reading your words it was very emotional, it reminded me of my childhood and i had to shed a tear from my eye. I understand very well what you describe, I have witnessed the same destruction of the natural habitat, in favor of the "human development". After living for a bit over 20 years abroad and having minimal contact with my home country most of the time, upon my return I saw the effects of "civilization", similar with what you have pictured above. My old playgrounds, green as far as you could see, were turned into what you describe as pile of bricks and asphalt. That was for me the last grain of sand that tipped the balance and from that moment I have decided that my place is on the country side closer to the mountains and even if I had for years a lurking thought about leaving the city, in that moment the decision became clear and it came very fast. The decision to buy this property was done after some years of thinking, introspecting and looking at different scenarios. It is remote enough but in the same time not far from some cities, about 20 km / 13 miles to the nearest town and 60 km / about 40 miles from a big city. Close enough to the "civilization" but far enough that it will probably not be developed in my life time. I am almost 50, maybe it is not the property where I will spend the rest of my life in but if it is and until another decision will have to be taken, I'll try to make the best out of it, The mountains that are in the proximity of the property will limit the development at least for a while and by then I will have a good view of the direction from where the expansion and invasion will come.

I do have both on the northern and southern side mono cropping, mostly gmo corn. Until now, about 2/3rds of my property was a part of that mono culture but from now on, the strip of land that came with the house it will be a break in the pattern, hopefully the neighbors will change in time. Fortunately, nobody is using and chemical sprays or or any chemical fertilizers so I am safe from this aspect, I have checked this before buying the house. Hopefully things will stay the same, if not improve. All neighbors raise animals and are small homestead farmers. They do what they were told and what they have learned from their parents and grandparents. We can't change the world and our neighbors, we can only teach by the virtue of our example. I want to make something different over there and if people they will think it is something good, hopefully they will copy and follow. There is also the possibility of buying some land nearby at a future time but until that time comes, this garden it will keep me busy enough, it will be a good teacher and it is manageable for a city boy alone that starts on a new road

Hugo Morvan wrote:Is there a source? I'd definitely would have a pond... If you're on thick clay you don't need a liner. I'd make it on the far end. you can the gravity feed the whole system with water when your newly planted vegetation need it most. You could as well have an ibc tote on an elevation next to your pond and have that filled up with water for extra pressure and reserve.
Do you think of having a hoop house somewhere? Chickens close to the house?
I'd have the hoop house further away and grow some trees in front, because they're ugly, but oh so handy in winter.
I'm not sure about cutting trees straight away at all. I'd really observe well. Where i am big oaks shade out my passive tree nursery and cuttings place. I water and deherb once or twice that way and harvest a hundred to five hundred trees that way.
If you want to grow herbs, what kind? i love herbs, i've got like forty meters of sage. But pfff, what for... i use five max so far.
It comes in handy as a windblock, it's hard as nails. Maybe if you want to sell.... But otherwise you quickly have enough herbs. With 15meters x 2 meters, you'll have a world of herbs?
Where you based? Europe? You speak of meters. I'm in France.

Hugo, many thanks for your suggestion of a small pond, now I can't think of anything else but having a pond at the far end! For now I have no problems with the water, there is plenty of available water at almost no cost but, man, I love your idea! A pond, no matter how small, it promotes and encourages biodiversity and that's what i have in mind. Plus, that is the area from where the water comes, from the mountains and it flows down, it would be amazing to collect and store a part of that water. It is very doable and it makes a lot of sense. The soil it is not clay at all but very well drained, without being sandy. Some sort of liner would have to be used, for sure. I want to avoid plastics but I remember Richard Perkins from Ridgedale Farm showing some type a lining made from a very nature friendly materials, something that it sealed itself in contact with water, will have to do a bit of digging into this subject.

I would love some chickens, goose or some home birds, i dig the idea of a hoop house. More of a chicken tractor but probably on this narrow strip of land the chicken tractor idea have to be left out. Probably I won't use the birds as a source of meat as i will get too attached and connected to them (I'll probably give them all names, ha ha) but again i go back to biodiversity and I am all in for that.

There are a few trees on the property but most of them are not doing well and will have to probably go. There is 1 that is doing amazing apples and that one it is an old strain, non gmo and maybe another one, also apple tree that will maybe stay. That one it is not a good variety but it shows strong genetics, looks like a mix between an old strain and a wild apple, I'll probably keep that one for root stocks. The rest of them, about 5, they are in very bad condition, dead or very damaged, modern hybrids and they will most probably be replaced. I am not in a rush with this process but will see how the process goes, until that space will be needed the decision will be looked from all sides.

I did not put together on a list the herbs that I have, I just ordered many packs of seeds from wherever I found somebody selling traditional old varieties and a lot of perennials, some almost forgotten. I can't point many herbs that I am a big fan of (maybe dill), I can tell you more in a while after I will try them from my garden. Apart of the classical herbs that most people use and if the memory serves me well, I have seeds of  dropwort, chives, bergamont, costmary, burnet, galega, winter crest, meadowsweet, fennel, mache, alpin rock cress, bladder champion, chervil, orache, hyssop, honesty, musk mallow, perennial rocket, cicely and many others.

I am located in the north west of Romania, in Transylvania, near the Carpathian mountains. I grew up in a big city on the north west near the border with Hungary but I lived most of my adult life abroad, mostly in the middle east and some years in the northern Europe. The call of nature, the mountains and the caves have won finally and since about a year and half I am back in Romania

Eino Kenttä wrote:Hello Alin,

First off, congratulations on getting the land!
A bit more info would make it easier to give specific advice. What's the climate like, what latitude are you on, etc. Anyhow, a few thoughts:
If it was me, I'd put all the taller trees along the northern edge of the land. That way, they won't shade out whatever else you want to grow. With a piece of land that narrow, trees along the southern edge would efficiently shade everything and make it harder to grow other stuff (assuming you're not extremely close to the equator or in a climate where shade is necessary to prevent overheating). Of course, if your north side neighbour also wants to grow things, that might complicate matters.  South of the taller trees, you could plant lower trees or shrubs, and south of them herbaceous plants and very small shrubs. Any annual vegetables you want to grow could also go on the south side. In essence, you'd be imitating a natural forest edge, which is great, since that's the most productive part of a forest when it comes to food.

I'd suggest making a wheelbarrow-width path running along the entire length of the property. It could be either on the south side (since nothing will grow on the path it won't shade anything) or on the north side (since you need some space between the trees anyway). Don't know what's smartest. I suppose it depends on whether you want to focus more on trees or herbaceous plants. Either way, you could make short paths branching off from the main one wherever you need access.

As for the zone question, it might be smart to put things that need a lot of tending or that you use often closest to the house. For instance, close to the house you might want to put annual vegetables, herbs you use in the kitchen, some berry bushes for berries to go in your breakfast cereal, etc. Further away, you'd put things that you harvest once a year and that mostly take care of themselves the rest of the time. Nut trees and some fruit trees would be in this category.

I took the liberty of doodling a simple sketch of one possible design on top of your map. Dark green marks taller trees (including any understory plants you can fit in there), light green is shrubs, brown herbaceous plantings (including annual vegetables), and red is paths.

Happy new year!

Many thanks for your words and for your sketch of the map, amazing stuff!

I have made another post above giving more details about the location, things that you have mentioned but i've omitted.

That is what I figured out would be the best as well, to place the trees that are growing taller along the north side and it would be great to have another line of smaller trees somewhere all along in the middle, with smaller perennials and veggie plots along the south length. Branching out small paths on the sides for ease of harvesting, intervention and recreation, all noted and for sure I will take in consideration your suggestions.

It had never crossed my mind that the edge of any given forest it is the most productive part, food wise! Now that you said it and i see it, i can't unsee it, very valuable point and for sure worth observing and taking notes about forest edges. Another thing that hit me and a light bulb went on in my head while looking at your design sketch, is that I had a brain freeze and i was blocked on the idea of the 5 zones, using the permaculture principles. But probably on this type of land, having a narrow and long plot, probably 3 zones would be a better approach.

What a bunch of amazing beings you are! I am overwhelmed and humbled thankful for all of you taking your time to read and to write your opinion and advises regarding my issue with designing the land. You all have very valid points, some of those I have thought about and others didn't. Very good and solid points, for sure I will consider them, I'll add them on my list when the planting comes. Thank you very much indeed. I will reply to all of you that have wrote and gave me ideas and advises but before, I just want to add a few details that I have omitted on my original post. Some details that have been very useful to understand more about the site specifications.

The property it is in the north west part of Romania, at 46.45 latitude. The elevation is 220 mt / 720 ft above the sea level and it is very near the mountains, just a few km / miles away. It is away from the main village, on a very quiet road. The climate it is temperate continental, hot summers and cold winters with very distinctive 4 seasons. In the west on the map is the main village, at a bit lower altitude (the village gets flooded sometimes but the area where is my new property have never been flooded). In the east and north east, about 50 mt / yards away from the end of my property, there is a "no man's land" full of accacia / honey locust trees, that land it is not maintained. That area with the accacia trees it is a strip of about 50 mt / yards wide and after that starts the forest that leads to the mountains. The natural course of the water is from the south east towards the north west, right along the property .  So looking from the house towards the end of the property, at the end there is a small up hill and behind that are the mountains.

The plots of land that are on the south and north of my property are used by the neighbors for mono cultures, mainly gmo corn. It is a bugger but at least they are not spraying anything on the crops. As fertilizer they are all using animal manure. About 2/3 of my property (except the house area and near vicinity) was until few months ago a part of this corn mono culture. The total surface area of the property is 2500 mt and for the moment I am not bothered by the idea of acquiring more land from the neighbors. I will be maintaining this land mostly alone at least for the next few years and if I want to get the most of every meter, it will keep me busy enough.

The wind comes mostly from the south east and there is no wind break. The rain water and the water resulting from the melt of the snow it flows all along the property, from south east to north west.

What do I want to do with the land and in what direction I see it going? Growing up as a city boy but spending some summer holidays on the country side at my grand parents, I could see the disappearance of  what i consider valuable and strong, resistant genetic material, the so called landraces (what a stupid name but it is so widely used so let's stick to it for now) and heirloom varieties and a big influx of all sorts of gmo strains, a phenomenon that was applied but not limited to all veggies, fruit trees, shrubs and so on. I do not want to go here on a discussion about the benefits, the nutritional value etc of the non gmo vs gmo, we can open another thread for this but I would like to have a garden of all non gmo, all landraces and heirloom edible or / and medicinal plants, all sort of plants that include veggies, perennial, shrubs, fruit trees, flowers. No use of chemical synthesized pest control or fertilization but instead solving these aspects in more natural ways like encouraging biodiversity and minimal to no till methods. Firstly for my own consumption and later, why not, maybe selling young trees, plants and seeds. Not only selling but also giving away and sharing with those passionate about this. I always gave away from what I had without expecting something in return but somehow I always got blessed and rewarded for what I did. The acquiring of material things and financial gains was never on my top list of priorities, i was always guided in life by intuition and spiritual vibrations, without being religious at all. So far I have 6 type of fruit trees, about 15 different type of fruit shrubs, about 25 - 30 types of different veggies and 45 different seeds of perennials, all edible except or 3 that have other uses (making soap for example). All of them old strains, landraces and heirlooms. I will start with what I have in the spring when i will receive all the trees and shrubs (I have them reserved for now) and I would like to increase my collection in future trough exchanges. The local climate it allows me to grow more or less everything that grows on the temperate climate, plus about 1/4th of whatever grows more north and south.

I / we are just passing trough and I want to dedicate whatever I have left here in the company of nature and gardening, since I do not have what people call it a normal job. And if I can make some ends meat while doing that, I will be grateful.

There are 2 more pictures attached, both showing the location of the land.

Hello, fellow permies!
Anyone is or was in the situation of designing a piece of land that is very narrow and long? I have recently made the step finally of leaving the city and got myself a small house on the country side, with a little bit of land. During the last fall and until now I have collected a lot of heirloom, landraces, medicinal and perenial seeds, shrubs and fruit trees and next spring I would like to start planting but I have got into trouble designing the zones. I am familiar with the concept of zones and I can see it working on a piece of land that is more or less wide, but how do you divide the zones when the land is narrow and long? In my case, the land is about 15 mt / 50 ft wide and about 175 mt / 575 ft long. I don't need wide access all across the land for big machinery but small and narrow paths for wheelbarrows or similar size tools /machines. I have attached a drawing of the land perimeter. On  the left of the picture it is the access road and the little L shape is  the house. Only about 1/3 of the land it is fenced at the moment. There  is a slight slope, the right side being higher than the left (where is  the house) being lower) maybe 1 mt / 3 ft elevation on the right side,  The sun rises on the right of the picture and sets on the left, there is  an arrow on the drawing pointing north. My idea is to create some sort  of food forest that will incorporate veggies. In time, I would like to  have all edible and medicinal plants. I don't want to leave much land  for wildlife as the land it is not very big, it is 2500 mt square / 0.61  acres. At a distance of about 200 mt on the right side of the drawing,  there is a forest.
If anyone can help with some input and ideas, I will be very grateful. Many thanks in advance and a very happy new year to all!

You are very welcome, John. I am confident that you'll make a beautiful garden there. Good luck!

John Evansfield wrote:Thanks Alin

I am sorry it took so long, I just got my friend's email address. His name is Omer Selim and you can write him at selimgil66@gmail.com
You can tell him that Alin from Romania gave you his details.
I hope you will succeed and you'll make a beautiful garden with strong plants. Let us know how it goes.

John Evansfield wrote:I am glad you enjoyed Bodrum as well and yes, it will be great if you can send me your friend’s email. Thank you.

John Evansfield wrote:I have a vacation home in Bodrum, Turkey and trying to find a native plant mix for the yard that may look like a traditional lawn. The climate is hot and dry in summer, cool and wet in winter. The soil is also salty. Any tips are appreciated.

I am sorry that I can't help but you've brought up amazing memories from the back of my mind. I've lived in Bodrum for 4 years, one of the most amazing places that i've seen. like I said, I can't help with advices but I have a friend who teaches horticulture I think at university in Trabzon, he is very knowledgeable, Also he's into the good stuff, not gmo. If you want, I'll give you his details, probably he could help maybe

I have a 3.5 hectares of land in Romania and I intend to make a permaculture / forest garden there very soon. At the moment I am somewhere in the north of Europe but I'll go back next month. I very much consider sharing the land with like minded people (I have no children and I rather leave it to some amazing people than leave it to the government or smth like that). If a place in the low mountains in Transylvania, Romania sounds appealing to you, please let me know.