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paul wheaton
master steward
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Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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There are two properties next to the lab that are currently for sale. One of them is about 200 acres and one is about 40 acres.

The current owner is a timber company. They are asking for $1600 to $3000 per acre. But I've heard through the grape vine that they asked this much for other properties and people were able to pick them up for $300 to $600 per acre. It sounds like they want to sell and sell quickly.

The timber company contacted me last week to say that they are going to log the 200 acre parcel unless somebody buys it soon. Since it was through me that the armin's piece was sold, they asked "do you know anybody else?"

An interesting thing about the 200 acres is that it is technically three pieces. So I think that if three buyers got together, each buyer could have about 70 acres. And it would all be sorted out at closing.

The most important thing about these properties: deep subsoil.

If you are interested, please send me an email: paul at richsoil.com.




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Matt Powers
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I want to be your neighbor!!!

If only teachers made more than a pittance...
 
paul wheaton
master steward
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Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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When contacting me, it would be helpful if folks could tell me which chunk they are thinking of and if they can buy that chunk outright. Or maybe I should just say this upfront: the timber company won't finance, and banks won't either (there are rare exceptions).

 
Deb Rebel
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40 acres at $500 an acre is $20k. Not too bad but not many have that much in the sock/mattress/soupcan/bank. The 200 acre one would go about $100k by itself, so $35k each chunk maybe. Just past what someone can wing by themselves and may have to have the bank help. And banks tend to be pretty narrow about alternative living schemes... sigh.

Good Luck Paul and may someone manage to make this one happen. That many acres of like mindeds together, that would be awesome. And some room to expand into...
 
paul wheaton
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Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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When folks are thinking of actually putting in an offer, we have a real estate guy that does a great job of representing the buyer and tracking down the important details. Plus, if two or three people are going to go in on the 200 acres, he can work out how the land would get divided at closing time.


 
Marianne Cicala
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Sometimes it's worth thinking outside of the box - you can buy land in a retirement account. It would be appropriate for someone that wants to be Paul's neighbor later, but wants to secure the property now. If anyone wants more info (I'm only offering info, there's no agenda here) just send a message to me. I've bought land, city properties to flip many times inside of my IRA.
 
Chris French
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How much time do you think there will be to gather the needed funds?
 
paul wheaton
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Chris French wrote:How much time do you think there will be to gather the needed funds?


Well, I think you put in an offer, then they accept the offer and it is usually 30 to 90 days to close where you gotta pony up the bucks.
 
William Bronson
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
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I hate to ask but will the price drop a lot after the rape and pillaging is done?
Fall back plan could involve repair of a shattered landscape.
 
Kevin Morland
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What are the building restrictions that you have to contend with there?

(Or maybe point me to another thread where you've already explained this.)

Kev
 
paul wheaton
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Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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No building codes.

When I looked at the basecamp property, the real estate agent told me about how she and her mother had the exact same modification done at the same time. Her mother was in missoula county and had to pay twice as much and it took four times longer. And the soil dug out of the yard had to be hauled to the dump and could not be added to the garden.

 
Kevin Morland
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Do you have any photos of either property? Are they listed on an MLS anywhere?

Kev
 
Sam Boisseau
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Looks like a great opportunity! Especially if it goes at the lower prices.

I'd consider it if I lived a bit closer and not across the border. Would love to learn more about the properties anyway.
 
Mountain Krauss
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Location: Northern California
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We might be interested in the 200 acres at $300 to $600 per acre. Financing isn't an issue. What is an issue is that we are well-rooted in the Bay Area (Northern California), and realistically, couldn't move there for 7-8 years. Would the crew at wheaton labs be interested in looking after it in the meantime?
 
Deb Rebel
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Lovely Mountain Krauss, lovely! Hope this works out!
 
Kevin Morland
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How can you fin out if a property has a deep subsoil?

We've started our property search and would love to know how to ensure we get something like this. (Again, if there is a link to a thread that explains this, please let me know!)

KM
 
Andrea Wisner
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Maybe 5 or 6 or 10 people could share/split the 200 acres. That should be affordable for many. Then also there would be active residents to care for the plots of the investors for the future.
 
paul wheaton
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Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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Kevin Morland wrote:How can you fin out if a property has a deep subsoil?


I dug a few holes.

I also watched for what the growth looked like. When the soil is thin, there would be sparse trees and not much growing between them. When the soil is thick, there will be a jungle of trees and undergrowth.

 
paul wheaton
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Mountain Krauss wrote:We might be interested in the 200 acres at $300 to $600 per acre. Financing isn't an issue. What is an issue is that we are well-rooted in the Bay Area (Northern California), and realistically, couldn't move there for 7-8 years. Would the crew at Wheaton Labs be interested in looking after it in the meantime?


It depends on what you mean by "looking after it" - but I would say "probably".
 
Josh Ritchey
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My wife and I are certainly interested, but definitely short on cash for this scale of a purchase. Does anybody have any creative ideas? We're open to investigating a sharing agreement if anyone else is as well. Not sure how that would work, but it sure is worth a shot at looking into.
 
Marianne Cicala
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I've gotten a lot of e-mail asking questions about purchasing land in an IRA, so I thought I'd send this out.

I've bought and sold timber land, flipped homes etc inside of my IRA and currently the only investments in my IRA are raw land. Beauty of it, thinking land is a smart investment, is that whether you hold it or flip it, until you take a personal withdrawal or distribution there are no tax ramifications. This can only be done is a self directed IRA - not inside of a corporate or government 401K, Simple IRA, Safe Harbour etc..

There are only a couple of companies in the US that can accommodate real estate transactions in a deferred account. The 1 I have used for years is Equity Trust: https://www.trustetc.com/
I make offers, close, pay property taxes from $$ in my IRA and the wording of any contract has to be very specific. The most important thing to keep in mind is that you may not "live" on this land (reason I mentioned buy it now, live there later) although you can certainly do improvements or even build as long as the $$ for that also comes from your IRA. YOU CAN ALSO BUY A % OF LAND.
I'll help answer questions to the best of my ability. It's truly a simple process that few people take advantage of.
 
paul wheaton
master steward
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Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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So I updated the map a little to show road stuff.

The company that owns the 200 and the 40 are saying "if we don't sell it soon, then we're gonna log it. And when we log it, we will, as is out legal right, come through your land." The fun thing is that once these two pieces are sold, then that company no longer has any access to our land. So supposing that just the 200 is sold, then i could put up a gate at the purple dots and sorta figure that there could be lots of logging trucks in that one teeny tiny bit.

I don't like the idea of a logger driving through and seeing something and saying "I don't know what that is, but I've decided to contact the department of making you sad about it."

So the 200 acres is the higher priority for me to find a buyer.

In the meantime, Lee (the real estate guy) says that some people have contacted him and they don't really have enough money to buy either. But they do have something like $10,000 to $20,000. He is spitballing ideas. And I have a few ideas of my own. See below for upvote style (thumbs up) voting for ideas.





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paul wheaton
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Upvote this if you have $10,000 or more and would be cool getting together with five or six other people who would each own a percentage of a corporation which would own the land. Decisions would be made Diana Leafe Christian style (sociocracy).
 
paul wheaton
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Upvote this if you have $5,000 or more and would be up for some sort of deep roots package on this land. So the land would be owned by me and ruled by me, and I would share some of my infrastructure-esque things. The more you put in, the more acres you get.
 
paul wheaton
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Upvote this if you have $10,000 or more and would be up for some of my previous deep roots offers if I brought the price back down to the old price. So this would be at the lab or basecamp. The idea is that if a bunch of people do this, then I might be able to buy a chunk.
 
Deb Rebel
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Paul, you also had one bite for someone buying it, and waiting 7-8 years to move to it, and having you steward it....
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22362
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22362
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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Deb Rebel wrote:Paul, you also had one bite for someone buying it, and waiting 7-8 years to move to it, and having you steward it....


Same thing that Armin and Lori are doing. I manage their deep roots stuff, and they have a slightly different set of rules for the land.

But then, a person can just buy that outright and then make arrangements with me for stewardship. If somebody is currently in the position to buy all of this land and I would steward it, then I would call that "transaction complete". But I would suggest that that party route that purchase through Lee, and it was just 40 minutes ago that Lee is asking me if we can get a bunch of people to poll their funds and purchase land together.

 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22362
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
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paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22362
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
 
Sean Kibler
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Location: Ohio
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@paulwheaton while I really like the idea of investing in land next to you my wife and I seek warmer climates than we are in now (northeast Ohio). We have been looking to the Carolina's or southern Ohio. Montana seems like a step (a big one) in the wrong direction regarding climate.

PS: What self-respecting American prefers cake over pie?
 
Deb Rebel
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Sean, I looked, some of the most NE of Ohio is 5b.The very south of Ohio is painted 6b. Around Missoula there is 5b painted, so it depends on where Paul and Co are near that if they are 5b or maybe a little colder. You'd be moving to similar to what you have now by the looks of it. I've lived 4b at altitude, and 5a also; neither is too bad. I'm currently in 6b and comparing it mostly is I see less winter snow between the two. A few less snow shoveling days is all. You should consider it.
 
Chris French
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I am very interested in this. I upvoted, once there is a plan in action I would like to be kept in the loop. You have my email in my user account please email me with updates if needed.
 
paul wheaton
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To come up with a plan of action, we need to know who is open to what. Then there is a lot of creative thought. Then 90% of the creative thought is flushed down the toilet. Then there is a lot more creative thought ..... and then there is a plan. People send in checks and if we get enough checks we will do a thing.

This thread will probably be the core of creative thought and stuff.

I would like to take this moment point out that last year somebody paid $20,000 for deep roots and they sold that interest this year for $26,000. So I would like to think that it is possible that for some folks, this could be an investment. As more and more permaculture infrastructure is built, I think the land would have more value to permies.

 
Sam Boisseau
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I wonder what would be the implications for a canadian resident owning a share in this.


Might take some work to come up with a working agreement if there's 5-6 people on it.


Also I was wondering what was the ecological value of that 200 acre property. Is there some old growth? Was it all logged a few decades ago?

I can certainly see some value in securing that land...


Is it possible to get GPS coordinates so I can look at aerial views? If it's not meant to be public I'd love a purple mooseage.
 
Philly Duncan
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paul wheaton wrote:Upvote this if you have $5,000 or more and would be up for some sort of deep roots package on this land. So the land would be owned by me and ruled by me, and I would share some of my infrastructure-esque things. The more you put in, the more acres you get.
We have some money, enough to throw in $5000 with some other folks to have partial ownership. If you can pull together a plan, I will send the check.
 
Leslie Zingarelli
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Location: Northern CA Coastal zone 10/a/b
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Hey! I'm from Pittsburgh..Mr. Rodgers WAS my neighbor! I'm definitely interested in a part of the new neighborhood tho! More later!!! - Leslie
 
Robert McEvoy
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I have a very considerable amount of money coming in over the next two years. I have a nice chunk now and another few thousand coming in the next two weeks. Then I have a somewhat large sum coming about 6 months to a year after that. Then a bunch more in the next 6 months to 2 years. I have been looking to use this for my own homestead or small farm with a house on it. I have a son now and hopefully one more kid one day. My wife is very interested in doing something like this, but having her own job while I tend all the property. I have a scientific and construction background and my wife is the manager of an opthalmic office group. I am not stuck on any area of the U.S. to move to and have been mostly looking up and down the east coast so far. I really want to use this money to set my family up in a great living environment where we are free to do what we want and have our own animals and food grown on our property. I would also be interested in some type of group situation, but would want to actually own a portion of this property for myself. My wife would want to continue working and I may want to keep some form of income stream from my own endeavors. Paul, what is there for me out on the parcels by myself, with your crew, or with a few other new folks? What kind of ideas are already floating around out there.
 
Mountain Krauss
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I was the guy who might buy the 200, but not be able to live there for 7-8 years. But our top priority right now is buying 30 acres right next to where we are now (1/7 the land for 2x the price... ahh, California), so people should definitely move forward on trying to purchase the 200 as a group. If we're unable to get the 30 acres, the 200 becomes our next target, but people shouldn't hold back from pursuing the 200 just because I expressed interest.
 
Josh Ritchey
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Does anybody have the details on the deep roots package? We're contemplating that and could get 15-20K together. This is exciting stuff!
 
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