Patrick Whitefield

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since Jul 26, 2012
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Recent posts by Patrick Whitefield

Hello Kate,

Wow. That's a big question. When you say the three principles do you mean the ethics, Earthcare, Peoplecare and Limits? It would help if you could be a bit more specific.

Best wishes, Patrick
13 years ago
Hello Sam,

Sadly, Bruce Marshall never did publish his work but since I wrote that book I've become aware that he wasn't that unique in what he did. The basis of his system was to increase the pH and phosphorous content of the soil enough so he could establish white clover, and thus improve soil structure enough to get the soil draining well. This has now become fairly standard practice.

I think the nub of the matter is the kind of peaty soil you're talking about. Deep blanket peat, which is fundamentally caused by a rainfall so high that peat forms spontanously in a self-reinforcing cycle, won't respond to this treatment. Nor should it. Blanket bogs represent an enormous store of carbon and if we drain them enough to grow timber or other crops on them it starts to oxidse. Other peaty soils are caused more by the acidity of the soil than by the high rainfall. The decomposing organisms are inhibited by acidity rather than waterlogging. These soils may well be wet too, but this is often because of a hardpan in the podsolic soil and it may be necessary to use a subsoiler to break the pan before starting. Whether such an intervention would be worthwhile on an inherently poor soil in a challenging climate would have to be seriously considered.

Thanks for your kind words about the Earth Care Manual.

Best wishes, Patrick
13 years ago
Hello Marc,

Sorry I haven't replied to your post before now. Somehow I didn't get the notification. I wish I could give a positive and practical answer to the question of how we alert people to the importance of soil - and many other aspects of human ecology - before it's too late. I've been wrestling with this one for 35 years and the solution just seems to fade away into the distance. We're very aware that you need to start changing before you're forced to and equally aware that the great majority of people won't change till they're forced to.

As I see it what we have to do is to focus on creating a viable alternative. This doesn't only mean the technical side of permaculture but also the human side. Here I think it's hard to overestimate the importance of working at the community level. Governments are always too little too late, as individuals it's all too daunting, but bang in the middle of the two is the community level and I there I believe the hope lies.

In fact there are some signs of hope. For example in this report to the United Nations, which states that agroecology (ie permaculture), not industrial agriculture, is the only viable way the world is going to feed itself in the future. http://www.srfood.org/index.php/en/component/content/article/1174-report-agroecology-and-the-right-to-food

Ideas and accepted wisdom can change faster than we sometimes think.
13 years ago
Hello Zoe and everyone,

Somehow I've missed this thread till now. But that gives me the great advantage of reading other people's wisdom before putting my oar in. I resonate with many of the statements in your posts.

I think the original conception of zone 5 in permaculture has, on longer consideration, to be modified. The more you look at 'wilderness', in the sense of land untouched by human hand, the more you begin to realise that it's doubtful if such a thing exists anywhere on the planet. The influence of non-agricultural peoples on the landscape turns out to be much greater than we, in our eurocentric arrogance, once thought it to be. Even the indigenous inhabitants of the Amazone modify the forest to some degree. So the idea that to leave it alone to work out its own destiny and act as a model to us is somehow 'natural' becomes problematic. Where humans have been a past influence, excluding human influence is not actually a hands-off policy. It's a definite management decision. OK, I admit it's one more often taken by default than by intention, but it doesn't have the neutrality we once imagined it to have. All this is especially true in New England with its extensive areas of recent regrowth.

Having said that, leaving it alone to follow its own path can be a wise decision. As with any permaculture design decision, the place to start is with a) the land's needs and what it can offer, b) your needs and what you can offer.

You certainly won't do the land any harm by leaving it alone. As Paul said, your woodland is going through the self-thinning stage, in which most of the young trees die, leaving a few big ones which become the elders of the mature canopy. This is usually a dark phase, with little growing at ground level, and a quantity of dead wood which to people of our culture looks untidy and even ghoulish. In fact it's perfectly normal and healthy. Dead wood is an important part of the forest ecosystem - it supports 10 times as much animal life as living wood and provides humus for the soil.

On your acreage there may not be any point in trying to imitate the disturbance regime of the bioregion, ie the way forest naturally replaces itself. Many, if not most disturbance regimes happen on much larger scales - square miles rather than acres. Nor is there probably much value in working to make a habitat for oldgrowth species. Again, you need a much larger area, so for example plants and animals can migrate to a more suitable area when the place in question passes through the dark self-thinning stage. You also need some continuity with the pre-agricultural forest, as old-growth species will, by definition, have died out if there hasn't been continuity of a sizeable area of forest from then to now.

As for the second aspect, what you need and can offer, it's a matter of inputs and outputs. Outputs first:- Do you need firewood? Would you like to leave some quality timber for future generations? Do you love the idea of just letting it go and seeing what happens - all or some of it?

These would require three different management regimes, with descending requirements for labour input on your part: firewood, quite a lot and continuing; timber, a lot one-off but no continuing commitment; ;leave it alone, none.

As with all permaculture design, it's a matter of balancing up a number of different factors, and I've only mentioned the main ones here.

13 years ago
Wow, these are some awesome slug remedies. I'm inclined to agree with you, John, about putting them on the compost heap. That's where I put them. It makes real sense that they'd rather stay in a warm heap of food, no crawling required, bed provided than go back out into the garden. I mean wouldn't you?

My sister uses scissors too, Dave, to leathal effect. It does look gruesome but it's effective - if you don't believe the one about just having to put them on the compost heap. In fact the scissor job's not unlike crushing cabbage white caterpillars - do you have them in N America? - which I do with no qulams. It just looks more brutal.

That spray sounds pretty effective, James. I presume you spray it on the ground around plants you want to protect, as a deterrent. How much per area do you use?

What's the purpose of the hot water treatment, Paula, is it to get the nutrients back into the ground or as a deterrent to other slugs? I know the biodynamic people have one where you burn slugs and then spray a solution of their ashes over the garden in homoeopathic quantities. I expect you have to do it at the right stage of the moon etc, and it probably won't work unless youve sensitised the land first with 500 and 501 preparations. Does anyone know?
13 years ago
It's interesting to see how many of you are concerned about plant selection. In fact there's remarkably little about plant selection in my book. For me permaculture is not so much about the things themselves - plants, animals, structures etc - but the connections between them. It's about how you put things together in a functional, harmonious design.

Of course climate plays a part in that too. Xisca points out how important shade becomes in a tropical climate, for example, and how it becomes a whole different ball game. Here in the north shade is usually something to avoid!
13 years ago
I've had a look at the light bulb video. Most of it seems to be about what a bad idea it is to use cfl's in places where you only switch on for a short time, rather than about using cfl's in general. Well I would have thought it was a pretty bad idea anyway, without needing to watch a video about it. There may have been something about reasons for not using them in general in the last part of the film, but I'd lost interest by then. It's a bit like criticising bicycles for not carrying four people at a time. It's not what they're good at.

Don't get me wrong. I really like films, articles, posts etc which probe accepted orthodoxy and expose it to examination and, where apropriate, ridicule. If I'm the guy who spoke the orthodoxy in the first place I like it even more. But then the probe has to stand up to probing too.

CFL's are probably just a stage on the way to LED's. But they're not useless just because they're only suitable for 90% of your lighting requirements.

I appreciate Burra's comments on the difference between books and posts. As well as the timescale there's a difference in mood, too, at least I find that myself. I love to sit down in an evening and lose myself for hours in a good long book. But on a screen I get itchy if it takes me more than a couple of minutes to read something. I want to be off somewhere else, hunting and gathering. 'The medium is the message' - Marshall Mcluan - it was never quite true, especially in his day, but there is an edge of truth to it now.
13 years ago
It's really interesting to hear all your different experiences with slugs and ideas for getting rid of them. I don't think there's any one method, or even any one package of methods, that can be recommended as THE answer. Every garden is different and every gardener is an individual too. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, even if you live just round the corner from me.

This is one of the keys to the way I teach permaculture. At the beginning of a course I say to the participants, 'I'm not here to give you the right answers. What I want to teach you are the right questions. If you start out with the right question you have a chance of getting the right answer. But the answers are different in every case.'
13 years ago
Hello Eivind,

I didn't mention rocket stoves because they hadn't been invented when I wrote the book. I have just done an update but it was selective, mainly around the climate and energy chapters. I rewrote energy because it's a technology that's changing so fast. But what escaped me was that part of that technology is in the building chapter! I should have spotted that. My apologies.

I can't remember what I wrote about low energy bulbs. Can you remind me?

I agree about 'fair shares'. It has become the usual term over here in Europe and the publishers more or less required it. Personally I like to call it 'Limits'. It's a challenging concept in our culture and permaculture is nothing if it doesn't challenge us now and then.

Best wishes, Patrick
13 years ago
Hello Greg,

I think there's a difference between what we do in a greenhouse and what we do to the entire planet. I think the summer you've just had in North America gives food for thought.

Best wishes, Patrick
13 years ago