Brian Morsman

Cedar Jay Jones, Glad to hear you are in the area.
I have recently moved onto 20 acres on the west side of Kansas, Oklahoma. So I'm still around Siloam Springs.
Right now we are rotating a flock of chickens on pasture with large chicken tractors, building a pole barn for the horses, maintaining a small home garden, raising more chickens, keeping ducks, and planting tons of trees.
I'm hoping to turn this place into a working farm from which I can make a modest living in the next ten years.
Let me know if you'd like to meet some Saturday and talk about things in person. I'd love to see your property and knock our brains together for a while.
Maybe we could meet at a coffee shop in SS some time. I'll buy.
Cheers!

Garry Hoddinott wrote:....Head turners among the food producers are Doherty, Saladin, Shepherd and Savory. None eschew permaculture but all have moved away from it to some extent. I could be cynical and say that by creating their own BRANDS they are shoring up their own enterprise, or perhaps they genuinely feel permaculture does not have the legs for the food production niche they are pursuing.

Garry, I'm wondering if you could elaborate on how these farmers have somewhat moved away from permaculture in your estimation. I understand that they may use different terminology with their main audiences, but I have heard Mark Shepard use the term in his youtube presentation. As far as I can tell, these farmers are applying permaculture quite actively, making use of design to fit their particular situation. I have not seen evidence that they don't think permaculture has the legs for real production.

I am also wondering if your comments are showing something about your estimation of the long-term efficacy of permaculture. That's not a dig at you, but your comments are giving me the sense that you don't think that permaculture can do what many think it can, even when applied. I don't think down on people who feel permaculture is not all it's cracked up to be; I just wonder if maybe your frustrations with how permaculture has been applied by others is tied to a deeper frustration with the design science itself. Is this the case, or am I just looking too hard at your words?

Charles Tarnard wrote:...there is no proof that it works. I live in suburbia, on a small lot, and have grown nothing but grass in my first 13 years here. I now have become very interested in growing my diet in my yard, and am trying to use the things I learn here to my best advantage.

There is plenty of proof that it works. There may not be a good example near where you live yet, but you can find many examples on the internet. There are hundreds of videos and many websites showing thriving permaculture installations. Many of those are suburban lots.

Charles Tarnard wrote:On my scale, there is nothing but the 'cutes,'

That may seem like the case, but even on a small scale, permaculture design application can yield more than just some herb spirals. Look deeper into urban permaculture (Geoff Lawton has a fantastic video on this, and yes, it has an herb spiral) and you will find some inspiring examples that may give you ideas about what you can do with your own property.

Charles Tarnard wrote:I can hardly push the idea that permaculture is a collection of successful theories.

You should be able to point to several successful examples online after some looking. That's what convinced me! I just went looking and I found a lot. Now I'm implementing what I'm learning about permaculture and it has worked well so far.

Garry,
I'd argue as others have, that the "cutes" you talked about are simply small pieces of permaculture design that yuppies have cherry-picked because these things most easily translate directly from one place to another.
I don't think that's a sign that permaculture's time has gone, nor that it was any more applicable in the 60s and 70s. Yuppies and others firmly rooted in the reductionist, consumer-style paradigm will always
take the most portable parts of a complex system as if they were just items on a store shelf. That's inevitable when a holistic thought system such as permaculture begins to spread into a culture that views things
as separate entities instead of as connected elements.

This does not discourage me at all. Permaculture is an extremely adaptive system. Its core principles can go anywhere and do nearly anything. Just because some suburban folks think they are "doing permaculture"
by putting in some herb spiral or hugel bed does not mean that Permaculture is losing its way. It only means that ideas from permaculture are spreading and that, as we should expect, many are misunderstanding them.
We know that herb spirals, etc. are only manifestations of applied permaculture principles (harvesting energy, design from patterns to details, etc.), but many others will look at permaculture and only see it as a bunch of
things to do, techniques, as is true of organic gardening. Most people who see permaculture will first see it through the lens of their established paradigm. Changing this takes time. Many who misunderstood it (myself included)
now see it for what it is and are making changes for the better in the world because of that shift in viewpoint. Still many more others have not made this shift to understanding that the "cutes" only resemble gardening "techniques"
on a surface level.

Another point I'd like to make is that although many people who are practising permaculture are not feeding the world at present, larger scale implementations are developing and will continue to grow in size and number.
Changing how people garden can happen much more quickly than changing how people farm. Few people with gardens risk their livelihood in a shift from the status quo to permaculture design. Farmers who do this really do
perceive a risk to their livelihoods. That means a change in large-format farms will take longer.

I know that many are struggling with the notion that maybe permaculture has had its day. Heck, even Paul Wheaton talked a bit about having such thoughts in a recent podcast with Geoff Lawton. I submit that we fight against
such thoughts. I believe that this movement is actually gaining momentum, despite many people calling their actions "permaculture" when they are not. That will happen with any good thing as it spreads. I understand the desire
of some people to get rid of the word "permaculture" in favor of a new term, but I think that for consistency's sake we should continue to use the word. If we use another word, how will we choose one to gather around as a community?
How will we explain to people that "yes it sounds just like permaculture because it is..."? It has taken hold in Australia to a larger extent than here in the states for obvious reasons, but if we change the name, I believe that two bad things
will happen:
1) The movement in the US and other places will lose momentum due to confusion
2) Those who heard about it before the name change but did not fully understand it will never pick it up because it will look like "permaculture" was just a passing fad that disappeared after a few years.

I know this was a rant, but I hope it meant something to some of you. Keep up the good work.

Looks like you have a promising design there.

I have heard that most farm operations in that region burn the excess organic matter after harvest. You might look around for that material before they burn it so you can gain free mulching materials.

Best of luck to you!

Tracy, I agree. I just sent you a PM replying to a message you posted elsewhere on this site a while back. Maybe some time we can meet up.

To answer your original question, I'm a bit east of you, in Siloam Springs, AR.
Not too far from Tulsa, and I have lots of friends over there!

I'm interested in communicating/cooperating with permie folks in and around Siloam Springs in NWA.
I'm slowly trying to get a yard transformation business started in Siloam, and I'd love to get a permaculture community together around here.