Annette Jones

Sarah Joubert wrote:Wow! That's a wealth of information and a great banana tip! I love sweet potatoes and I've tried growing them too, and while I get lots of top growth in the summer,they die over winter.I tried growing them under poly this last winter but I came up with the idea in the autunm and I think I transplanted my slips too late. I'll grow out some more this summer- but put them in the protected bed I built until I can get these pits sorted.  Now I cant wait to get back and start preparing, my husband is not going to be happy......More funny holes to dig.  The area I have is not 15m long and about 1.5m wide with a stone wall behind, so not a circle, but I presume the concept will still work if I plant the coffee and ginger towards the back and the cardamon and sweet potatoe between and in front of the bananas. Can I alternate the guavas between the bananas?
Your avos are in your chicken yard so I don't suppose you have much of understory or ground cover? Whats under your mangoes?
Thanks for taking the time to reply

Hi Sarah, Yes you can alternate bananas and guavas, the concept will work for the coffee, ginger, cardamom and sweet potatoes. Improve your soil first. If you are just putting in a new tree just keep it well-watered and mulched and protected from wind for the 1st 3 years.

One thing I have found is really important is to try not to plant in straight lines, permaculture shows that following nature as closely as possible works better for yield, you will also come to understand how planting in guilds helps immensely. You will get to know quickly what are the best layers to plant in your area.

My mango I keep pruned between 4.5-7m/15-20 feet and woodchip around. I have various types of thyme, catnip, comfrey, calendula, society garlic and aragula growing around the outer drip line. I started all these quite thickly after 3 years so as to keep weeds down also I put in a small lime tree the following year on the sunny side as the mango got bigger. There is very little watering needed now except in very hot weather so I have a greywater pipe which I can uncap for flow as needed.

One other thing, going by your comment on the sweet potatoes you are correct, the timing of planting is crucial so they are established well before winter when they can be covered in straw, you will find they reshoot in spring.

Let your husband know how well we all appreciate helpful partners here, he needs a big hug and so do you for trying to become more resilient and sustainable in your lifestyle.

Got these tips from the chefs in Masterchef here in Australia.

1 Marinating gamey meat is not just about enhancing the flavor; it also plays a critical role in removing the gamey taste. When marinating meat, the acidic ingredients such as vinegar, citrus juices, or yogurt help to tenderize the tough muscle fibers and reduce the gaminess. The act of marinating not only adds depth and complexity to the taste but also aids in breaking down proteins and reducing the strong natural flavors of gamey meat.

2 Acidic ingredients are essential for marinating gamey meat as they help to tenderize and break down the tough fibers, while also adding a bright and tangy flavor. Some commonly used acidic ingredients for marinating include citrus juices (such as lemon, lime, or orange), vinegar (red wine, white wine, apple cider, or balsamic), and yogurt or buttermilk. These ingredients are effective in neutralizing the gamey taste of meat and infusing it with a pleasant acidity.

Citrus juices are particularly effective in marinating gamey meat as they contain natural enzymes and acids that help to tenderize the meat while adding a refreshing citrus flavor. Similarly, vinegar not only tenderizes the meat but also imparts a distinct tanginess to offset the gamey taste. Yogurt or buttermilk, on the other hand, work by breaking down tough proteins in the meat and infusing it with a creamy, tangy flavor. When using acidic ingredients for marinating gamey meat, it is important to not let the meat marinate for too long as the acidity can start to “cook” the meat, resulting in a mushy texture. A good rule of thumb is to marinate the meat for no longer than 2-4 hours, depending on the type and thickness of the meat cuts.

3 To counter the gamey flavor of meat, adding sweetness can be a game-changer. Sweet ingredients like honey, maple syrup, brown sugar, or fruit juices can help balance and neutralize the strong, wild taste of gamey meat. Additionally, the caramelization of sugars during cooking can add a beautiful depth of flavor, further elevating the dish. Whether it’s a simple honey and garlic marinade or a fruity glaze, incorporating sweetness can transform gamey meat into a delectable culinary delight.

Thank for the advice Annette, sorry, I am North East Spain, about 200km South of Barcelona, about 50KM from the coast, 70m above sea level. Our weather sounds the same, we also reach into the fourties C but rarely go below -5C in the winter. Our wind comes out of the NW in winter and South in summer. Luckily both spots I mentioned are low in the landscape so the wind is lessened in summer and they are shielded from winter wind. Thank you for all the advice on shade, frost protection, ammendments etc But most of all for sharing your successes. They  encourage me to try again!
Does this apply to guavas, bananas and papaya too? How much row space does a 4.5m tree require? I have maybe 15m in total to create a wind free micro climate so I want to make the most of it! Ideally I'd like 2 mangoes and 2 Avos and I'd settle for 1 each of the others.

Sarah I have created a banana circle that includes 5 varieties of bananas that extend the season over 6 months, 2 strawberry guavas, 2 papaya. Understorey is 2 Naranjilla, 1 arabica coffee, and ginger; and on the outer part of circle in sun, arrowroot and cardamom. Ground cover is sweet potatoes. Create your circle so the outer edges extend to your 15m. Pile up a big heap of green waste, compost and soil, water it really well then cover in straw then woodchip. Plant your bananas on the top of the heap around the circle evenly, the guavas on the sunnier side of the circle inside the bananas alternate inside with the rest of the plants, except arrowroot, ginger and cardamom which go outside in sun too. As heap starts to sink top up as necessary, probably every 2 years. As banana leaves die off, chop and drop around the plants always, If you have animals a little top up with aged manure 6 monthly also helps. I usually find I don't have to water after the plants are established as the micro-climate of these produces its own evaporation cycle. With the sweet potatoes, look up for how long and when they are due to mature in your area and putting a glove on, forage around the roots for tubers. I often partially snap the stems at a node and push the stem right down into the soil. This creates more tubers wherever you star new roots off. The leaves are also wonderful to thicken soups, stews, casseroles and fried crispy as a topping on Chinese or other Asian meals.

I'm not sure what varieties of mangoes or avocadoes you can access but both can be pruned to size and will grow quite happily near one another, just not in the banana circle, they are another micro-climate. They will need 7.6m/25 feet depending on the cultivar, mangoes need 3.4-4.6cm/10-15 feet; but they can be pruned to shape and height once they are past 3 years old.

On a fun note: when my bananas have ripened and their stem has to be cut down to make way for new ones that shoot at the sides, I position the stem and gouge out a large trench to hollow down its length, leaving the ends on so water doesn't run out and fill with soil and compost mix and plant them with lettuces, the stem keeps feeding them until you need them :-)

Hope this helps.

"Sarah Joubert wrote:
I think I may have a similar climate to you, maybe drier. Rainfall is mostly winter/spring. I have a frost period of maybe 60 days max (recorded while I've been here the last 4 years). Summers are scorchers. I can grow passion fruit and by covering my citrus I have got through 2 winters without loss but prior to that I tried avocado and mango- 2 of my MUST HAVE'S- and all failed. Avo's I have tried growing from seed and keeping in an unheated poly house over winter, but they die. Mangoes and Avos I bought potted trees which survived the 1st winter under a covered veranda, struggled through the summer and definitely didn't make it through the winter. I have 1 or 2 spots which I am considering as a microclimate. One is a stone wall about 2 meters high, sun facing and sheltered from winter wind and midway down a slope. The other is an east facing dirt bank about 1.5m high near the bottom of a slope. Based on your experience with these, and if your climate is similar, how and when would you advise planting these trees, would they benefit from having greywater empty into their chipped wood covered "swales" or rather just occasional watering. I have heard fruit trees dont like wet feet but I'm not sure if this applies to all tropicals?
I think your post was a great example of, with a bit of thought, we can grow much more than say standard orchard spacings allow.

Hi Sarah,
You don't say where your location is, it would be helpful. Regarding the avocados I protected them from mid-summer heat the first 3 years by putting a sail over them, then took them down, they don't like much wind or scorchers like we can get 109F/42C, winter temperatures can vary from 23F/-5C so summer or winter they needed the cover in their early years.

The avocadoes I have are 2 different varieties which can cross-pollinate for heavier yields and are growing very successfully about 200m from the house (NE) in the yard with the chickens where they get plenty of fertiliser and give shade to the hens. If you are northern hemisphere I guess you would look at SW, low wind.

I seldom water now except if we have more than 5 days too hot, but the first 3 years I deep watered fortnightly and added a brew of weeds, and seaweed to give resilience and they are always well composted and mulched. I use shredded sugar cane mulch, chop and drop weeds and winter ground covers. The mango likes more heat than avocadoes, (I have 2 between 15feet/4.5m), the same thing applies until they are over 3 years old keep them covered during weather extremes, well composted and mulched. Wood chip is great around them and greywater doesn't hurt at all if that's what you have access to. Also don't forget groundcovers suitable for your area, that cover, nourish and break down.

If you are in Southern hemisphere I can give you the varieties I found best. Hope this helps

Hello Andrés, Have you done any more interesting projects since the bamboo path and duck bedding? Love to hear if the rain has made a difference for you.

It does depend on how far up the base of the tree they are going and whether they have earth piled up against the bark which can eventually cause rot.

I would observe over a period rather than getting rid of them as many ant species can be beneficial.

Only if you do see damage, I would use diatomaceous earth sprinkled around and in the main entrance hole and behind any loose bark, which will encourage survivors to move elsewhere.

I love these musical veggie orchestras and instruments. There are so many YouTube videos using music played with vegetables that are fun. I use them for the grandkids who have their favourites they sing along to. They often ask to see if any new ones have come along, great entertainment and learning for rainy days or for sick kids to encourage healthy eating to get well.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vegetable_Orchestra

I have 0.14 of an acre (598sq m), and have over 50 fruits and trees. My microclimates extend what I grow from cool temperate, temperate, sub-tropical and limited tropical (mango, bananas, coffee, guavas, feijoa, Native Currant-Antidesma erostre, red papaya, babaco, avocado, etc, my cooler trees like apple have 6 multi-grafts giving me ongoing apple and 3 pear varieties 7 months of the year, grapes and citrus are multi-grafted as are stone fruits, apricot, plumcot, plums, nectarine, peach varieties, macadamia and hazelnuts, white and red shatoot mulberries, also native exotics like finger limes and lillypilly. It is a permaculture teaching yard which demonstrates microclimates and showing what understoreys like berries tamarillo, passionfruit, banana passionfruit, and many herbs and groundcovers that work best.

Not everyone has what they perceive as an ideal climate but we have managed, through small micro-climate areas to attain a very productive level of what we love to eat. Haven't been successful with pineapples :-(

I love seeing what folks find works for them, how they start with the basics then build up to understanding how to manage one small microclimate area at a time. I've been doing this seriously since the 1980's, so there is a lot happening here.

Set out what fruits you really love and will use and do some research on what to place around and under, you'll be very satisfied with each success, and will learn what doesn't work and not to waste time on. Seeing what works in your own neighbourhood is a great start and leads to people with like minds who can help with bits and pieces along the way.

Everyone here has great suggestions and such different environments that you should end up with some solid info to kick start your next step to more trees.

Thank you Jocelyn and thank you permies for making this a freebie, it is so much appreciated.