Eric Bauswell

I've been thinking about how the rocket stove works and a few things come to mind. If you were to super heat water you could do quite a bit with the steam. It seems likely that you could have a fairly efficient steam engine/power if you wanted to go that route. Or a heating system where you could move the steam to other rooms and even heat a secondary clay seating area, floors, heated bath/shower, etc. I'm early in my thought process around this, but I don't want to repeat other's efforts either. (Didn't the Romans use steam extensively?)

Am I missing something as to this potential? You would likely require more wood because you're pulling out more energy from the local system.

Does anyone have any experience leveraging the rocket stove system to drive a steam system?

I also recommend you take a look at Mr. Teslonian's gasifier stove devices/accessories on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrTeslonian/videos?shelf_id=5&view=46&sort=dd&tag_id=UCVP1PTBbRGpmTQE1oQx8xNw.3.gasifier
He also has a few thermo-electric effect accessories.

I would expect it does as do so many other businesses. The thing is I would like to see some baseline expectations being able to be voiced…maybe it is simply that I'm new to this. Though I think it is more likely that it is such a huge concept that trying to capture it in a simplified model doesn't work for most people…because it isn't something that is simple. I want it to be simple so that I can start to wrap my brain around it…and everything can be simplified. The problem with simplifying it is that it inevitably becomes less accurate…and that's alright as long as you understand that. (Physics, etc is filled with this approach.)

Cj Verde wrote:

Eric Bauswell wrote:What does this permaculture business model look like?

Sometimes the model looks nothing like what you've written. It all depends on the land, the person, and other intangibles. I thinks that's why there are so many permaculture "stories" to get us to think about the story that will work for us.

Thanks for the quick response. I love the idea that the margins are better than an average business model for you. That is heartening. The second point is a lot more of what I suspected was the real challenge to making it a traditional business, it is truly difficult to scale. If aiming at $100k for revenue is unrealistic, then it would be very difficult to make a competitive status quo salary/income. The subsequent point about a penny saved is worth more because it isn't taxed is certainly true, but without hard currency it becomes difficult to get the things you don't have which may be more than simple wants, some may very well be needs.

I look forward to more great feedback!!

Adam Klaus wrote:
Right now I am netting about 65% of my gross, still in the developmental stage, and I believe that increasing this ratio is the key to increasing my personal annual income.

And I would say that aiming for $100k in farm net income is beyond unrealistic."

What does this permaculture business model look like?

Land (Buy outright, mortgage, lease) Figure this has a payback period of X years…some might suggest 30 year mortgage, but I would try to think of this as a 10 year term for no other reason than to eliminate debt.
Taxes

Housing

Seed

Land Management (engineering, shaping, sculpting, design, etc)

Equipment

Utilities (electricity, fuel, etc)

Sale Price of Product to Consumer (What product(s) are you targeting as a business?)

I am a newbie regarding permaculture, but as a concept it is logical. The discussion point made repeatedly in this thread is that the future is unknowable and the ethics of preservation outweigh profit. This is not sustainable. If your farm is not profitable, then you won't be around to do anything for the land. Having a sense of the costs (and some of the risks) at the outset is a must…yes, you can and will still see unknown challenges.

If you begin with a statement that you want the farm to net (after taxes, etc) $100,000.00 (US). Assume the government will take 1/2 of your money in various taxes across the various levels. Also assume that your expenses are about 1/2 of your cost of revenue.
$400,000.00 (Revenue)
-$200,000.00 (Expenses)
=$200,000.00 (Profit before Taxes)
-$100,000.00 (Taxes)
=$100,000.00 (Profit)

When I put it in that context I am presuming no salary is being paid to the owner. This is a common business model. This model gets scaled the larger the revenue number because covering overhead costs, which are often fairly static, gets easier as the revenue grows.

$200,000.00 (Revenue)
-$100,000.00 (Expenses)
=$100,000.00 (Profit before Taxes)
-$50,000.00 (Taxes)
=$50,000.00 (Profit)

I haven't tried to go through and determine what the business model actually is with real expenses and pricing, but this is how I would begin.

The thing I've noticed is that the "products" are not going to be at significant volumes since you are doing polyculture. I'm also fairly skeptical about the costs actually being lower. Labor appears to be the gate to this model, not necessarily a game breaker, but it is a very real challenge to scale towards financial independence. The costs saved via polyculture are offset by the costs of harvesting small volumes…repeatedly.

The value to land improvement and sustainability is important and cannot be ignored, but if you can't pay the bills, then again it doesn't matter much how much you WANT to save the planet.

I am not saying to not use this methodology. I certainly appears to be a reasonable approach on a small scale, but having it be the primary path for family income seems to be a stretch at least on first glimpse. The piece that I keep coming back to in my business mind is the "niche-up" as some have put it. Identify a component that you are passionate about and pursue it. Do the polyculture for your own foodstuff and mix in some more focused "mono-culture" or something approaching it in a more blended fashion to enable you to specialize and compete in pricing & enough volume of high quality product to generate a focused revenue. Jim Collins would call this the Hedge Hog Principle, what can you be the best in the world at while being profitable? I don't think it matters much if it is making handcrafted tools, wine, jellies, smoked ham or medicinals…but I do think you need a comprehensive strategy…even one that changes every 3-5 years. You could attempt the generalist approach with a good old fashioned General Store, but I suspect you would end up bringing in other suppliers' farm goods which don't meet your "ethical" permaculture standards.

This is some pretty compelling stuff regarding the holistic approach to agriculture. I would love to hear some feedback on the different components in the model above. I think the land quality and how quickly you see it being productive dictates how much capital you need to start, but am definitely open to everyone's thoughts.