Pedro Cr

Zach Muller wrote:Here is a link to a small article about the bacteria. As for specific types there is another article here with more detailed information about types and techniques. I have only ever used pre inoculated.

These are awesome, thanks. Need to go and find the bacteria now. Apparently I'm looking for Rhizobium trifolii.

Peter Ellis wrote:So your land is already terraced. Seems like you do not need swales.

My conclusion too.

Peter Ellis wrote: Regarding inoculation, the actual seeds get treated with the bacteria before planting.

I'll have to check with my seed supplier then. Right now I'm planning 4 grasses (2 clovers, ryegrass and fescue) as well as borage and comfrey. Would this apply to all of them? Does it apply in general?

Amy Woodhouse wrote:If you could upload a topo map ( not sure if they are available in your area) with the particular ace outlined I might be able to give more specific help.

Here's a topo map of the field in question.

http://i.imgur.com/DDmiV6E.jpg

If you can't make out the lines/numbers the field has a 3m drop over its width and then there is the supporting wall and the next field is 6m below it. The 3m drop is over a 50-60m width so there's <1% drop already.

Amy Woodhouse wrote:Pedro, looks like you have gotten some good advice. I would highly recommend that you find the highest contour line on the pice of property you are planning this food forest on so you can plant your trees accordingly. Even if you are not planning on putting in a swale right now, you may want to later and it would be a shame to have to disturb the trees you are planting later on. The swale can be as simple as one pass with a double bottom plow. If you could upload a topo map ( not sure if they are available in your area) with the particular ace outlined I might be able to give more specific help.

Our whole farm is built in levels each with a support wall. It's basically a staircase on a slope. Now each "step" is not itself flat because the traditional way to irrigate is to make the water run along the ground. We've now invested in a complete system of plumbing all around the farm and can get water from a pump or just with gravity to any point in the farm. Our water source is a horizontal mine. Basically a tunnel in one of the steps that goes level into the mountain. At it's lowest the mine produces 15,000 liters of water a day. So far (for the last 10 years) we've dumped water away all through the year. We have 7,5 acres of which only 2 or 3 need irrigation. The rest already has a natural mix of forest that we've been making richer with different kinds of trees.

The field in question is pretty simple. It gently slopes down and has the mine opening and main tank at the top (east side). So the top tends to be water heavy. We've planted the alders on the north east corner as they are water tolerant. We planted the robinias in the northwest corner as it's drier. We will now be adding the additional (shorter) trees south of these to make sure they all get good exposure.

The field itself is known to be very water heavy. The supporting wall has once collapsed because of it (a long time ago). Since we're now using the mine water better instead of dumping it all on the ground that shouldn't happen again. Given this context I'm not really convinced swales are a good idea. The staircase structure of the farm already does much of the same job and we can easily create damper areas by just running a gravity fed irrigation tube.

Zach Muller wrote:If I were doing that technique again I would absolutely look at inoculating my seeds before sowing. I have had great germination from some inoculated red clover seeds I bought and it made me realize how much that would have helped getting a strong start in re-tilled soil.

Thanks for the tip. What do you mean by inoculating the seeds? Do you mean inoculating the field with nitrogen fixing bacteria (what I found searching online)?

Spent the day working the field. Burned off some old branches and broke down a pile of compost into several piles around the trees to mulch them. After that had a tractor come in and till the field. The original plan was to sow right after as tomorrow there's rain forecast. However the weeds were so tough we decided to let it rest for a few weeks, let the weeds come back and then till them again. It will also give me some time to improve the mixture I had bought. I want to add a red clover and some comfrey and borage. My bulk seed supplier is looking up the prices for bulk comfrey and borage and hopefully I'll have those seeds in a week or two.

Peter Ellis wrote:What you don't have at this point is a good system for preparing the pasture area and sowing the pasture mix.

I say this in hope of highlighting the question that needs answering so that someone who does have good advice on point can chime in and help you out.

That's exactly it. Thanks!

Michael Cox wrote:Pedro - you haven't said anything about you climate and location. These will have a bearing on recommendations. Most people here add it to profile information so it is always visible.

Right. We're in the north of Portugal in Marco de Canaveses. It should be zone 9.

Michael Cox wrote: Regarding Swales, they are great for getting trees established because they help build a reservoir of water in the soil. If your rain is consistent year round this may not be an issues, but even here in the wet UK we have dry spells in summer and end up irrigating. Swales are a cheaper and easier alternative to bore hole irrigation if they will work in your setting.

We have pretty dry summers. For the trees I'm planning an irrigation system just to get them established. We have plenty of water thankfully and have a bunch of drip irrigation systems already in place and know what works and what doesn't.

Cj Verde wrote:Are you putting in any swales?

Didn't even know what those were. Just searched for it. Wasn't planning any no. The field slopes down from the place where all our water comes from (a mine and a large tank). So the top half of the filed is a lot damper.

Cj Verde wrote:Plant N fixing trees amongst the fruit trees so you can chop and drop the small branches around the fruit trees. Lawton goes 9-1 N-other trees as support. Black Locust is inexpensive and very easy to start from seed.

I am indeed doing this. The Italian alders (alnus cordata) were put in just for this purpose. I'll be posting another post with our preliminary design to get more tips like these.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to do the sowing though? Should I plow or not? Should I till once or more times?