Datura Elijah

Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Hi Datura, et al,

Do keep us in touch.

If you are not in a palm or thatch roof area, then they probably used a shake or slate for roofing. If you give me your exact geographic local, I can be of more service. Reciprocal roofs are neat looking and do have merit yet are not really a vernacular form in most arias. Also, "round" architecture (especially vernacular forms) are almost always of a "transient nature" and not meant for permanent installation. (ie yurt, ger, ti-pi, igloo, etc.) Most are still either square, or rectangle with gambles while some are octagon with corbel roofs like you would find in parts of Mexico and on the Dine' reservation. I look forward to being of more service if I can.

Regards,

j

Thanks again for the great advice Jay. From my research it seems that those without access to palms made use of reed and grass for straw thatch. I'm going to see what I can find in that area. In terms of shape of the structure, I built a 1.5 meter high stemwall with our local volcanic rock and the shape is round, however there is a skeleton of timber. I have a henge of 13 verticals and I am using 13 timber rafters. The actual shape because of the henge is going to be a 13 sided polygon. I am going to carefully consider your advice as I sense we share a passion for natural and native living and also perhaps a shared skepticism of the modern "green" ideology.

Thank You Ludger,
I've contemplated this idea but would the bamboo not decompose or become infested with insects? I don't have any way that I know of to treat the bamboo that I have access to. Thank you for the suggestion. I've often wondered if i could implement the same idea with recycled irrigation tubing.

Also, with a thatched roof I am thinking that the pitch will need to be much greater than what a reciframe typically offers. Although with using grass or palms I wouldn't need to carry as much weight and so the reciframe may be overkill anyway?

Thanks John and Jay,
Palapa or any kind of thatch roof is not as viable here as you might think. We are high in the volcanic mountains and there are no palm trees here. The forest is much like you would see in the Georgia mountains. I can try to get fronds brought in from the valley about an hour away but that could be costly given our location. Its very difficult to find vernacular building systems as this part of Mexico and most other parts as well have been so de-culturalzed and now even the old timers are swearing by concrete and rebar for everything. In any research its also hard to pinpoint the native ways because the climate, terrain, and vegetations changes drastically within just a few miles. I will continue to look into the native methods and keep you posted. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Hey everyone,
I'm new to the forums. I am a teacher of permaculture at an orphanage in Mexico. We are working to transform the whole of our Ashram here into a much more ecologically suitable situation. Here they use concrete for EVERYTHING because wood is very difficult to come by and very expensive. There is no sustainable forestry anywhere around and most agriculture here is slash and burn and quickly being coopted by the agro industry giants that are slowly being urged out of the more "developed" countries. Anyway, we are building a model home now that is a 5 meter diameter roundhouse. It will be a hybrid of earthbag and wattle and daub with a reciframe roof. Most materials are easy to come. We have ample access to clay soil and there are many yards full of bamboo in town that are happy to have them trimmed up and the old culms removed.
I am running into issues with the reciframe roof. I have the timbers I need but I am concerned about ra roofing option. Green roofs irk me due to the dependency on synthetic materials for the membrane and padding etc. Even if I was fine with that, we cannot access those kinds of materials here in this part of Mexico. My side question is how can green roofs be viable for people in these areas without increasing industrial pressence in those areas to produce a "green" industry. Anyway, the third obstacle is that we only have 4 months of rain here and the rest of the year is drought. This would mean that the roof would likely need to be watered and water is a precious commodity here given that we collect our rain in the rainy season for the whole rest of the year.
I am exploring other options but I wanted to see what the experienced builders here had to say.
What can I cover the reciframe roof with that would be sustainable (ecologically and economically) and if a green roof is an option are there any experiences of substitutes for EPDM and the other materials that are just as effective and may be available here.
I should add that even though I am a permaculture teacher here it doesn't mean I am incredibly learned in green building. I mostly specialize in growing and I have experience with building and especially with cob but framing, roofing, etc. is a blindspot as most of that knowledge is still from my days in conventional construction. It would probably be better if a permaculture teacher knew more about green building but its hard to find experts who don't mind living in rural Mexico and working 12 hours a day for no pay lol.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.

George Meljon wrote:

Datura Elijah wrote:Thanks John,
I will check out backyard chickens right away. Sounds like every hen needs a sq. meter? I have about 6 pens and each is about 50 sq. meters so with 50 birds in each it seems ok. However the pens are split into indoor and outdoor zones. The chickens have access to the inside and outside all day but go in for the nighttime. Can I include the sq. meterage of the entire pen or just the outside section of it? Thanks again John and for all my new questions I'll start new posts for the forum's sake.

I think a square meter is too much per hen. That is 9 or 10 square feet right? I read on that site it is closer to 4 square feet and that number can go down the more chickens you have. If you have 300 chickens, I'd guess (purely a guess) 2 square feet per chicken is enough - especially if they can get outside to graze. Thanks for your efforts at an orphanage, that is heart warming in itself.

Thanks George,
When you say "too much" you are referring to efficency, correct? In other words, can a chicken have "too much" space to where it becomes counter productive for them? I have 300 chickens and 6 pens, each pen at 50 sq meters. This number provides all the eggs we need so we don't need to up our numbers. If we can accomodate the chickens with a meter a piece that would be better for them or no? Is there ever a benefit to the chickens to have less space? They don't currently have access to the outside to graze. The outside portion of their pens is gravel and dust. In the future as my knowledge devlops and we can delegate more funds we will figure out a way to get them some "free-range" access but for now my thinking was that they should have as mush room as we cn possibly give them. Let me know if you see any holes in my logic. Thanks again for your help.

leila hamaya wrote:

They get a generic feed that I'm trying to change and I've already been planting lots of great grains and legumes as mulch and nitrgoen fixers that will be used as feed for them as well. We have a very big healthy supply of compost as well that I give them but as I am unsure of what they should eat I play it safe by only giving them fresh greens, squash and cucumber peelings, and other basic veg scraps that don't include avo, nightshades, sweet fruits, etc.

animals have a sense usually of what to eat and what not to eat, especially if they arent starving.
i dont think you need to be careful when you feed them, i would give them any kitchen scraps you have. most animals have more robust stomachs than us and can eat foods past their prime, and whatever else.

r

Thanks Leila,
I get what you're saying but I think that statement becomes less true as the animal becomes more hybridized and/or domesticated. How many well fed dogs die from eating chocolate and I've worked at a vet where so many per birds come in from avocado poisoning and other animals with renal failure from grapes and such. I think that domestic animals have very muted instincts (albeit way better than the avaerage person) and they also have access to foods that would never be in their natural habitat. I know that this is a very highly debated issues and some are way more strict than others about what the chickens can and can't eat. Some say their chickens have been fine eating absolutely everything and some claim many of their chickens died from this or that. Of course without access to all the facts and contributing circumstances who can be certain. I just hope to find a middle ground thats comfortable for me and the chickens.

Thanks John,
I will check out backyard chickens right away. Sounds like every hen needs a sq. meter? I have about 6 pens and each is about 50 sq. meters so with 50 birds in each it seems ok. However the pens are split into indoor and outdoor zones. The chickens have access to the inside and outside all day but go in for the nighttime. Can I include the sq. meterage of the entire pen or just the outside section of it? Thanks again John and for all my new questions I'll start new posts for the forum's sake.

Hello permies,
I am new to the forums and I am also very new to chickens. I build permaculture systems for communities and charity organizations. I have been doing this in the US for a couple of years with my wife and now we find ourselves in Morelos Mexico at an orphanage where we are creating systems of food production for the children and staff here. The system entails a food forest and many various micro-climated growing spaces around the property. I have also inherited about 300 chickens that have been producing eggs here for years but have not been kept in great condition. I have no idea what I am doing in the world of chickens. I do not eat them or their eggs and many of the communities I've worked with have been vegan. Granted, there is a great deal of common sense involved but I need to throughly educate myself on chicken care and I want to get as close to free range as possible without losing too many of them to predators and such. The people here have been mainly taking the advice of the local farmers and vets who are primarily concerned with volume of egg production and ease of care not really with any type of holistic approach. They get a generic feed that I'm trying to change and I've already been planting lots of great grains and legumes as mulch and nitrgoen fixers that will be used as feed for them as well. We have a very big healthy supply of compost as well that I give them but as I am unsure of what they should eat I play it safe by only giving them fresh greens, squash and cucumber peelings, and other basic veg scraps that don't include avo, nightshades, sweet fruits, etc. They are kept in 4 separate pens that are split into an indoor and outdoor section. They have an automatic drip watering system and those hanging feeders with the round basin fed by the cylinder in the middle.
I feed them in the morning while I collect the eggs and clean out the indoor coops. I completely clean one coop each day so they all get fully done at least once per week. The floors of the coop are concrete and I just scrape them clean with a shovel. We put pine shavings in their boxes for them and the eggs.
We have loads of scorpions down here in Southern Mexico and occasionally one of the chickens will get stung. If we see that they are stung by how they are acting (or not acting) we give them a full clove of garlic and that usually does the trick. However, I found one dead hen this morning and one that was found a few days ago. Many of them have many missing feathers on their packs and it looks like they were plucked out (maybe by the rooster?). They are taken care of as best I know how and I spend a lot of time making sure I do whatever I can. I am learning slowly but I need to know so much more. I know that there is an entire overhaul required but I need your help. I want to do everything right. Of course being where we are we don't have access to the kind of expertise and resoruces that would be avialble in the US but we are slowly raising money for these projects so I can buy some of the stuff we need to really give these birds a great ife. I'm open to all suggestions on where to start. Books, websites, email addresses, and just plain old forum advice. I can pretty much tackle anything in regards to growing and maintaining a happy healthy soil system but the chicken world is a new fronteir. I do enjoy spending time with them though and I'm sure I'll enjoy it so much more when I am taking care of them right,
The goal of this orphanage project is primarily to provide good food and clean water for the children and staff here but it is also to create a permaculture learning center that our children here will lear to run themselves and teach the local mexican communities about ditching the standard slash and burn gmo practices and start fixing the land. It is important for them to learn proper chicken care as is is a big part of the culture here and needs to be addressed regionwide. Please point me into the direction I need to go so all of us here at tashirat can start making a better place for the birds. If you have interest in the whole of the project you can see it here http://www.wethetrees.com/campaigns/help-orphans-become-community-leaders-in-ecology-and-permaculture