Zee Sultan

Oh great so you already are familiar with afforestt technique, yes I know that afforrestt before I know permaculture and but afforestt person has taken his technique from Akira Mayawaki of Japan and even Akira's technique also is a small portion of broad permaculture. Dave so you got right I really want think dense forest which can grow super fast. What if we can come up with a new nice garden by blending great things?

Hi Friends

This is a serious call for all Permies to help me in this project because It needs to be extra ordinary impressive in order to promote Permaculture not only in my country Pakistan but also in the other regions. I have challenged forest department that kindly replace conventional forestry with Permaculture in order to save this planet. After attending several meetings, presentations and sessions I finally got 10 acre land but the land which they decided first to give they changed at the last moment because they thought that permaculture is just a hypothetical thing and conventional mode of forestry is by far the best for them. Their preference is Timber.
Though access to the new land is extremely tough for me and I have been upset since I myself have seen the troubles’ getting there because my residence is far off and I don't have my vehicle. Also got a minor accident yesterday But I still accepted the new land as its totally virgin and its such fertile that they say that our land is such fertile that if you sow man in it even the man will grow. It’s a new forest been made by government on a bigger scale so the earth work has been going on and water lines are being established. Getting man power will also be no problem at this stage.

Now there are three options for me to choose from at the same place
On one corner they have mulberry planted and I can plant somewhere between the beds.
One the other side they have populus /black poplar. I can try permaculture guilds in between the spaces.
And the video I will attach here is the separate corner where they have grown nothing but of course they will plant their standard trees in rows there as well. Their plant nursery is also very close to that place. I have selected that place because I think before they plant their standard trees I should present them with my design so that they will follow that design.
Place is totally prepared and levelled. Water system already established by them. I have taken soil samples for proper test but could not send yet to the soil department but soil is loam .
Answers Needed
I selected the place near nursery with no tree planting there am I right or should I select other place with trees already there? But in my opinion I can freely make design with bare piece of soil.
If the land is virgin do you think that still it is necessary to amend the soil? If yes can I use just farm yard manure and poultry waste or should I decide after detailed soil test?
How many trees/plants and species should I plant in 100 square meter area. I have read that in vertical growing at least 300 plants should be grown in one 100 square meter area?

Rest of the details I will give in another post as it is already lengthy but let me just give you some basic location details and my preferences for design

Region: Pakistan, City; Lahore, Province Punjab
Climate Sub Tropical Climate
Bed rock is 60 ft deep
Water table is 40 feet and is going down by 3 feet every year.
Dave Burton has sent me the link https://weatherspark.com/averages/32865/Lahore-Punjab-Pakistan where we can have temperature and wind details
Neighborhood details : it’s a forest land and in surrounding areas some private nurseries, villagers pastures and crop fields some bare lands and animals mostly buffaloes.
I want to grow all fruit trees. Except apples and a few other trees all fruit trees can be easily grown in our land and are native.
I want to grow all crops as well. Lentils also if possible. Spices like cloves etc are not native to Lahore but peppers and few others only.
Vegetables
Other shrubs, flowers and medicinal plants necessary will also be grown as the guild will demand.
I want to make my own nursery and compost there by keeping some place aside.
I will also try for pond but can’t say will they allow me or not but I really want a nice pond with fish and which can also conserve water as I want to show them total sustain able model along with water conservation. ( Other things like energy conservation and production etc. which I strongly dream will not be afforded at this stage but surely will be possible once this food forest be a success). They are using bore water with machinery fitted with it so using lots of energy I wish I could present them a highly viable alternative to save this energy which they are consuming on drawing water from soil.
Animal even hens are not allowed to me at this moment but lots of buffaloes and cows are in the surrounding villages.
So at this moment only a diverse healthy thick and dense forest full of fruits/ crops, vegetables and other plants with high aesthetic appeal is the only requirement. Other aspects of perma like energy production etc.etc .are neither allowed nor funded so not needed. But obviously a practical idea could be presented to them for future consideration..
I also want to know if any expert want to visit Pakistan and work in collaboration with me in a systemized way then let me know kindly.

Is there a way to direct video upload here? I tried through vimeo but failed moreover I prefer to just show video at this forum.

Bundle of thanks Dave. Your link has helped me a lot in gaining new information easily from the comfort of my home otherwise I was thinking of contacting weather department.

The other link was amazing I have never heard of this air water technique thing. No harm in trying though my site has no water problem moreover I am thinking of conserving rain water through Dam because Small dam can also produce electricity.

As far As form one is concerned in utility areas what is this clothes line?

I am also confused about which department can tell me about stream gradient
and slope gradient

and what is hardiness zone, warm summer slopes, cool summer slopes

In the climate what is this pockets? Air drainage and micro climates?

And I am introducing Permaculture in Pakistan with great enthusiasm no one near me to guide and teach. This is my first experimental project. Success of this project is crucial as it will open a whole new awareness of permaculture in Pakistan. Need the help and support of you experts and friends.

Hi again
I just have gone through questionnaire one. This is such a long list of questions which will really help in good design. There are some points which I want someone to teach me as I am unable to understand. Can some one help me with these?

Hi Dave thanks for such an informative reply. Such wonderful links especially client questionnaires but as for as daily temperatures and climates are concerned how can this chart help because it changes on daily basis.

I live in Pakistan province is Punjab and city is Lahore. Now winters have almost gone and spring is at the door. Ideal season to grow. The land is already a forest park for permies. Swales are there. But yes you have raised important questions like contours etc. We don't have water storms in that area but yes wind storms near summer season.

Let me answer the questionnaire fully and completely then again come to this place with all details. Should the video of the exact location will work?

Climatic zone Sub Tropical

Soil loamy ( Waiting for detailed soil test report)

Swales are already there
Kindly let me know what information should I provide further to get your input?
I want to grow all local fruit trees, medicinal plants, herbs, shrubs, flowers, vegetables in guilds. I want separate portions for crops. Then pond and one water dam will also be the part of this perma garden.
Cow, buffalo, Goat, hen, pea cock, etc. I also aim to produce electricity and biogas. So many things in mind but I want more opinions on that.

Hi

As I have promised to share my first project with you from start to end. Yesterday on 4th February 2015 I have signed a final agreement to make “First Experimental Food Forest Project” I want to include you all so that you can also have a sense of belonging with this and those who want to initiate their projects don't feel alone. Take my example I started with scratch and alone, government hasn't given me land yet, but still I am going to make it as this concept has inspired my first client Ishtiaq therefore he happily provided me with his residence. So let’s have some fun and learning together while making this experiment successful.
The most interesting is my craziness and risky dare that I contacted forest department and applied for forest land but forest people even don't know about food forest. One day I was calling again and again to talk to secretary forest department but his PA was not connecting me with him rather asking why you want to talk? I replied that I want to make forest. He said we already have been creating lots of forests then what’s the need of forest made by you? I said I want to make food forest. He bluntly said “what’s the work of Food in Forest? I just disconnected the phone in anger but then I laughed too much. I told this to the secretary as well when I met him later.

They forwarded my case to research department so that they can take over the project with me, but I protested that what’s the right of them to take over the project? So I am no more interested in government land. The case is in process but now I didn't pursue even once. Instead I have decided to start work for Ishtiaq who is also a forester and was too much moved and impressed by the idea of food forest that he requested me to not only initiate the project at his land but also want to learn and work with me as well.

Seeing his passion and enthusiasm and openness for new techniques I prefer to work for him and with him as well. Though he is new to this entire concept but still easily understand all terms and concepts. I just need to verbally tell him that first I will do this then this -----. He is providing me with full support. Whatever I am suggesting him he is ready to provide me with that. I am happy that I am not only the pioneer of this concept in Pakistan but also spreading it fast and even attracting and approaching influential departments e.g. Forest department ----- so used to work in conventional way that asks “food in a forest? Ha ha ha! I really enjoyed his remarks and since that day I have been anxiously waiting for that day when I finally show him Food in a forest. Pray for me and the fruity paradise forest. You guys also try to connect with bold and like- minded passionate people because it’s the first key to success. Even in old bodies you can find young souls.

Technical details I will share tomorrow. Sorry for a little off topic but as this is going to be a history so I find it important to provide you with the necessary back ground.

I will show you entire land before and after step by step. I will invite your advice and suggestions and miracle tips as well.