Marshall Ashworth

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:Neither willow or aloe vera are poisonous. I wouldn't hesitate to make this mixture in my normal cooking pots. Though, depending on how much you cook it down D suppose it could be sticky and hard to clean.

More a precaution than anything; don't want people to use their cookware and damage it and then complain. This is just safer.
There is also the chance of someone using copper or some sort of unexpected chemical reaction that stains the cookware.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:My first thought was "this would never work in my part of the world; the cuttings would instantly dry out." Air too dry, rainfall too sparse.

Your second post added the qualifier that this was possibly better for subtropical and tropical areas -- I think this could be viable if there is enough humidity and rainfall. I wonder, what "cooking" temperatures would deactivate the rooting hormone?

My reasoning for adding the small amount of fresh willow water was exactly to counteract the chance of this. Simply adding a small amount of 'fresh' to the cooked gel would mean we get something that has both stale and fresh hormones; the idea being that there should be enough fresh hormone to do the hormone part; and enough gel to protect and coat the cut wound to help it heal more stable in drier climates.

Mart Hale wrote:Looking forward to seeing your results....  

I would suggest a control group of just water alone just for a reference to compare to.

Other items i have seen tested to help in the rooting process is raw ( unheated ) honey, and cinnamon.      

Best of success in your experments!

Yes at the moment though i want to make an unadulterated mixture; ensure the basis of my thesis is right; that the aloe will help the wood heal and callus more regularly than just willow water alone. At some point in the future i'll look at adding other items to the mixture to extend the experiment further.

As to your point of the control group; i was already going to do this, but i also think perhaps i will also try with just aloe vera gel as well just to see the condition of the cuts with just that as well.

Reason for the experiment :
When any watering takes place, especially with hardwood cuttings, the wood in the stripped area can become dried out between waterings, causing the lower parts of the wood to rot before the cutting has struck; or insect damage to the buried part of the cutting. By using a thicker mixture; the assumption is that the stripped area will be more protected; more like a commercial rooting hormone gel than just using willow water on its own.

This is particularly more common in subtropical and tropical areas.

What you'll need :
An old medium pot
An old bowl
An old colander / strainer
A old mesh strainer
Two jars (ie. ones where the jar is chipped and no longer holds a seal. you can reuse your preserving jar lids for this to give it one more use before disposal)

[NOTE: DO NOT use something you will use again for food. Use only items you were going to throw out or have thrifted for this purpose]

Proposed recipe :
6 [minimum foot length] Willow Stems
1/2 cup Aloe Vera Leave Gel (just squeezed out, not worried about any bits at this point)
1L / Quart of rain water (do not use tap water !)

Proposed method :
(use a medium pot you won't use again for food !!)
Add the 6 willow stems, stripped off the outer bark, add the stripped bark to the pot, cut the stems into small (1 inch, 2.5cm) sections into a medium pot
About a Quart of rain water to the pot.
Boil the mixture on medium heat, stirring occasionally until the water quantity has quartered.
Strain the mixture into a bowl (use a strainer and a bowl that won't used for food in the future)
Reserve the boiled wood for the compost or garden (should now be dead enough to compost or use as mulch in the garden without sprouting)
Allow to cool until a finger inserted into the mixture is warm but not hot.
Run the squeezed aloe gel through a mesh strainer (one you won't be using again for food) into the cooled willow water we just boiled, mix until the gel is well mixed together.
Store in a Jar that you won't be using again for food (ie. one where the jar is chipped and no longer holds a seal. you can reuse your preserving jar lids for this to give it one more use before disposal)
Should be used within a week and stored in the fridge

How to use concentrated hormone :
Add a small amount of the fresh willow cutting water into the willow gel concentrate; just enough to create a mildly thin paste (think syrup). Stick your cuttings into the mixture in a small container or jar (for this purpose only!), making sure the cutting is close to a bud and the outer bark is stripped to expose the cambium around the budding node for semi-hardwood and hardwood cuttings. Rest overnight (you do not need to reheat the mixture at this point because we've already extracted the hormone from the liquid). The mixture should cling to the outside of the cutting and not run off as easily as just plain willow water. Allow to dry, turning once after 5 minutes. Overall should be left no more than 10 minutes before planting out.

Treating biochar :
With non-concentrated willow water; mix crushed biochar with cold, non-concentrated willow water. soak overnight, spread in a tray outdoors to dry before crushing further to ensure a coarse powder.

Plant out cuttings :
in lightly watered seed raising mixture (softwood cuttings), or lightly watered mixture of sand and willow treated biochar (semi-hardwood or hardwood cuttings).
Ensure that the trays are free draining. Stick the gel coated cuttings into the raising medium, inserting to just above the treated area (DO NOT OVER-BURY) Spray lightly once a day with rain water, ensuring they are protected from the elements under sheltered area that is shaded. After all the cuttings have leaves emerge (Between 30 and 90 days), slowly introduce more light to the trays; adding an hour each day to sunlight, until the tray has been exposed to 8 hours of full sun. At this point they can be treated as if they are seedling trees.

Will be producing some photos of the process and treatment once i have more free time, currently we are in winter; this is peak research period for us. Closer to spring the experiments will start.

When to do your cuttings :
Softwood cuttings can be done anytime; as long as it is done in a shade-house or where the sunlight level is at least 40% less than outdoors.
Semi-hardwood and hardwood cuttings should be taken in the winter when the shrub or tree is dormant. For shrubs and trees with no dormancy; they should be taken in early spring when the plant is putting on new growth.

[Edited: Adjusted the recipe to make the aloe gel more stable and keep it's gel form without adding additional thickeners.]
[Re-edit: Safety and precaution information]

My project focuses on extending the research into cross species (since it seems since the early 1900s we've stopped really researching this)

I'm still practicing by creating new varieties until i hammer down the grafting part of the exercise; still a little rusty since the time to do so comes around but once a year.
And the more the trees grow, the more spare cuttings wood is available. So the older the trees get, the more fun can be had !

Since the discovery of cloning we seem to have lost all interest in natural processes and seem to be leaping head first into genetic engineering, which i really don't like since it seems we are hellbent on making nature our slave. I'd much rather in the permaculture realm, focus on working with rather than against nature myself.

John Wolfram wrote:

Marshall Ashworth wrote:So now my question is, when exactly did they start breeding seeds out of food ?

At least a few thousand years ago. I, for one, am glad our bananas and watermelon don't look like this anymore.

Yes they also didn't taste anything like they do now !

But yes, as noted thousands of years of people doing hetero-grafting to some degree, i have been doing research on another thread in the trees section if that topic is of interest to people.

https://permies.com/t/279794/experimenting-graft-graft-introduce-DNA


My problem is a suspicion that we've moved away from grafting and selection from seed traits and moved heavily into the genetic engineering as primary source.

List of successful hetero grafting (common)
For anyone wanting to know what already is grafted using this technique.

Stone Fruit:
Grafting peaches, plums, and cherries onto each other is generally successful, with some variations in compatibility depending on the specific varieties.
Pears and Apples:
Some pear and apple varieties can be grafted onto each other, especially when using "wild" pear rootstocks for apple grafts.
Citrus:
Certain citrus species can be grafted onto each other, but compatibility can vary significantly.
Other examples:
Other successful heterografts include grafting hawthorn (various species), medlar, and nashi (Asian pear) onto European pear

Citrus: Sweet orange 'Newhall' scions grafted onto Poncirus trifoliate population or C. junos Siebold ex Tanaka rootstocks.
Melons and Squash: Oriental melon scions grafted onto squash rootstocks.
Tomatoes and Peppers: Tomato scions grafted onto pepper rootstocks or vice versa.
Eggplants: 'Ecavi' eggplant scions grafted onto S. torvum or tomato 'Emperador RZ' rootstocks.
Chrysanthemums: Chrysanthemum scions grafted onto Artemisia rootstocks.
Vegetables: Grafting is used with various vegetables like tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and melons to enhance disease resistance and other traits


Additional Resources :

Britannica Overview of Horticultural Propagation practices and history
https://www.britannica.com/science/horticulture/Horticultural-education-and-research

Compatible_Graft_Establishment_in_Fruit_Trees_and_Its_Potential_Markers : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362865073_Compatible_Graft_Establishment_in_Fruit_Trees_and_Its_Potential_Markers

GRAFTING COMPATIBILITY, SCION GROWTH, AND FUSARIUM
WILT DISEASE INCIDENCE OF INTRASPECIFIC GRAFTED TOMATO
https://bibliotekanauki.pl/articles/55789071.pdf

Marshall Ashworth wrote:Nevermind !!!

Very much got this one wrong, this is why a graphic is useful

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Applications-of-heterografting-to-uncover-mobile-molecules-a-Homografting-is-performed_fig1_331525599


We attach the "bad" scion onto the "good" rootstock not the other way around.
Ohh boy, need more coffee for this one. Maybe alcohol lol.

So, we'd encourage it to fruit while attached to the Donor plant; i was thinking we attach the donor to the plant we want to add the trait to.

But then the next image over "Genetic Graft" suggests what i thought would be the case ?

Is it just a case of we do one before the other ? Need more research.

My brain hurts.

A heterograft (or xenograft) uses material from a different species, while a genetic graft (or homograft/allograft) uses material from the same species.

Nevermind !!!

Very much got this one wrong, this is why a graphic is useful

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Applications-of-heterografting-to-uncover-mobile-molecules-a-Homografting-is-performed_fig1_331525599


We attach the "bad" scion onto the "good" rootstock not the other way around.
Ohh boy, need more coffee for this one. Maybe alcohol lol.

So, we'd encourage it to fruit while attached to the Donor plant; i was thinking we attach the donor to the plant we want to add the trait to.

But then the next image over "Genetic Graft" suggests what i thought would be the case ?

Is it just a case of we do one before the other ? Need more research.

My brain hurts.