Kelly Finigan

Abraham Palma wrote:I did my maths long ago. Every butane tank (12,5 kg) has 130 kWh per unit. Gas heaters have between 3 and 4.5 kW.  Catalytic units are usually 3 kW (remember that you need to vent in a while, so it's a little less efficient than electric heaters). If you keep it working night and day, it drinks one tank every 43 hours. In our mild winters, 5 hours (15 kWh) a day is enough for most appartments, meaning one tank lasts for 8 days. Yeah, I supose someone can store 12 tank units in his home and not depend on the supply for that winter, or what most butane heater users do, have 2 to 3 tanks and have a refill every week (supposing butane supply still works).
For more extreme wheater, I would need to know how much heating power is required per day. If say, that house needs 30 kWh per day, then it's a refill every 4 days, not so practical, and more dependent on a steady supply.

For big houses it's better to install a big propane tank (1000+ kg) with airtight propane heaters. They fill the tank with a truck and you have gas for the whole winter, but that's expensive.

Pretty much agree with everything you say here.

For context, the OP (and much of Germany it appears) has a special problem this winter: freeze, go bankrupt or try to find some lovable middle road. Conservation has to be first. Lower temperature inside, wear extra clothes, heat only spaces (parts of buildings). Using space heaters can be key to this (wood if existing infrastructure is in place: it is not for the OP, electric heaters and my suggestion of propane).

I (sadly) forecast there will be planned quotas and perhaps unplanned (surprise!) outages....having an alternate heating system and fuel on hand when the grid goes down can be life saving. If I were the OP I would:
[a] conserve like crazy - - keeps the bills down and gets you used to "chilly living" for any outages
[b] experiment with the space heaters, knowing electric could get shut down too
[c] use the propane/butane exclusively when there are outages or if the prices of grid gas spike beyond the fuel tank prices.

The OP indicated they are renting and  considering moving. Putting in a wood stove is permit-lengthy and capital intensive. Putting in a propane bullet (although I would if I could not use local wood and this was to be a long term situation of outages and price volatility) is also quite "spendy" and needs permits (at least around here it does)...

Abraham Palma wrote:

Sorry, cathalytic heaters are not much different than any other butane/propane heaters. They work by combustion too (fuel+oxygen=water+heat), but you don't get to see the flame since it's distributed among the cathalytic panel at a lower temperature. They produce as much monoxide as any other clean gas heater. Gas heaters are allowed to be used indoors without ventilation for devices of less than 4 kW. Therefore, for more than one heater, ventilation is required (min. 125cm2). All modern heaters feature a safety device that will stop the gas when oxygen is running low (the test flame can't keep the temperature in that case).
As with any other combustion heater, there's a risk of burning when placing things over or too close to the heater. They also produce water steam, which can be an issue in an unventilated room. Some people have a hard time breathing when humidity raises and oxygen lowers, and suffer head bumps.

It's a very common heating device in my country, but note that butane/propane supply depends on oil consumption: the more petrol derivates (fuel oil, gasoline, tars, kerosene, parafine, sfsf) are consumed, the more butane/propane is produced. So, if oil is running low, so will do propane. Maybe it is not an issue for this winter, but it could be for the followings. Good thing is that even if you are cut from the electric grid, it will still work as long as there's gas left in the bottle.

Hi Abraham,

To be clear, most energy systems do have hazards and need to be operated properly...electric spaces heaters are a leading cause of fires, chimney fires burn houses down and CO from poorly made wood fires and poorly maintained nature gas furnaces kill people sometimes too. Everything needs to be maintained and operated properly.

And yes, propane / butane is a petroleum product...but for our freezing European friends, these tanks can be purchased in advance and stored. Not an ideal situation but we are dealing with an emergency here. People may have not been planning for the cost of appliance and tanks but moving house is expensive (hundreds of $ for utility hookups, address changes, truck rental, pizza and drinks for friends, lost time from work), time consuming and an upheaval especially if children are part of the household.

Finally, for the OP and anyone who is interested, here are a few links about catalytic heaters and the actual performance and safety issues compared to "conventional combustion" heaters...note that although they do create a small amount of CO (carbon monoxide) they are SAFE INDOORS with an open window for make up air (for the oxygen consumed and turned into carbon dioxide [CO2] ).

ALWAYS GET A "Certified" HEATING APPLIANCE (propane, electric, butane, wood etc) to know unit was designed, manufactured and tested for safety. ALWAYS provide make-up air for wood or fossil fuel use.

https://cpsc-prod.ctacdev.com/s3fs-public/pdfs/CO03.pdf. This is a technical document that describes government (US) testing and recommendations about safety. They do express concerns about one rating standard when the units are left on for more than 6 hours I believe.

https://rvshare.com/blog/catalytic-heater/

https://trucampers.com/are-catalytic-heaters-safe-in-tents/

Olga Booker wrote:

If you can get the catalytic heater and a few large propane tanks this may be your best heat this winter.

The problem is gas.  Russia is cutting off the gas supply to most of western Europe.  Even if you can get some, the price will be prohibitive.  Electricity prices are soaring too.  I guess that is why the OP is worried about heating for this coming winter and looking for an alternative.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/04/gas-prices-rise-russia-shuts-nord-stream-1-indefinitely

Hi Olga,

You have noted "gas" as the "problem". "Russia... cutting off the gas supply to most of western Europe" is actually the triggering event that makes the problem obvious and painful.

The REAL problem is actually having spaces that are not resilient. Gas is PART of this problem. The OP (and many millions more) are living in spaces that are sometimes too big, too leaky and heated by energy from far away. When the energy is cut or the price goes high the people panic (rightfully) when faced with freezing or going bankrupt.

Gas is also a problem from a permaculture / sustainability view: methane leaks from wellhead to home, indoor and local air pollution and greenhouse gases.

Long term solutions for the housing are right-sizing living spaces, conservation (insulation, windows, etc) and getting off imported energy (or actually energy from more than 100 to 200 km away, ideally using solar gain, wood stove, efficient heat pump with local electric etc). Long term solutions to "no gas" are widespread adoption of conservation and fuel switching by industry.

Of note, gas prices will be going higher permanently in countries such as Canada that are taxing GHG's even semi-aggressively...prices of $2-3 per GJ (bulk hub price - - retail was already several times this) of last year will increase by about $8 per GJ or about 400% for bulk hub prices. This is ramping in by 2030. It is time for everyone to make their "long term" plans now!

Short term, I have proposed a "livable" solution:
- reduce heat load (extra clothes),
- heat small spaces using a SAFE heater (catalytic NOT "conventional" combustion),
- use fuel that can be purchased ahead of time and stockpiled (so the OP actually has some heat if the lines "run dry")
- use an appliance that can be purchased for hundreds of dollars (not thousands like wood stoves)
- something that can be installed immediately  and without permits (again as opposed to a wood stove etc)

Again, I sincerely hope our friends living through this do so safely. This is a very serious time.

Sorry if somebody else has provided this advice but here goes.  At this point of basic survival against a coke European winter I would suggest not bothering with ideal permaculture or expensive and time consuming approaches (although these would be good for the long term).

Hopefully you can these in Germany but here we have catalytic heaters that run on propane.  They turn propane into heat by chemistry not by combustion. Combustion on your house will make carbon monoxide and kill you. Catalytic heaters will give heat and create some water vapour.  The chemical reaction also uses up some oxygen so you will want to crack a window in the house.  Remember though that air is 21%oxygen so there is quite a bit of that available.  

If you can get the catalytic heater and a few large propane tanks this may be your best heat this winter. The heater should be about $200 Canadian. Also don’t forget simple plug in electric space heaters.  Wear long johns and undershorts, thick socks and a sweater. Consider wearing a toque undies and gloves.  Seal the windows with plastic film to give an extra air barrier. If it gets really cold huddle together.  

Take care and best of luck this winter.

Jay Angler wrote:. I'm on Vancouver Island, BC, and there are people that grow lemons here with protection, but I'm not sure how many survived this past winter.

I *had* a lemon, two lime trees and a kumquat. They were "protected" by old-timey x-mas lights (the kind that got hot to the touch) and wrapped in re-may landscape fabric...they all bit the dust this winter after living for 10 years here, just one (long) block upslope from the Salish Sea. I HAD been optimistic but now I think citrus should be better protected here (hoop house perhaps with small heater?) for the one-in-ten-year winter...arggh!

Hi Pierre,

I note many replies are suggesting propane et for heating but since you want to insulate from energy prices, and the whole permie ethic of "earth care", I'm presuming you don't want to use fossil fuels to save electricity.

A real simple answer is to use TWO of the solar kits you can find in France if one is not big enough...just double it up!

If you want another step of complication (but not really complex), there is coiled copper tubing like this link...https://siamagazin.com/diy-solar-thermal-copper-coil-water-heater-easy-diy/

let us know what you ultimately  do - - it will be good for everyone to know options and how they pan out for you.

good luck!

Hey Ben, this is exactly 100% totally correct!

"But would like to point out that if you are planning on relying on an open fireplace as a backup heat source you are most likely going to be very cold.  In most cases an open fireplace is negatively efficient.  Meaning you suck more heated air out of the house than they contribute.  "

We have stacks of free dry wood and only use this when the winter storms knock the power out...goal is only for localized / room heat til the power comes back on (say up to 12 hours)...the old folks do love the ambience though and sit close to it...us mid-agers and the young'uns find it too hot close up but if it was a winter night I think we'd all huddle around it and get the sleeping bags out...or maybe the insulation would pay off and the house might only lose heat slowly. Fireplace is a shitty heating method really.

If we need backup more often  - - or if I someday feel I have too much money - -  I might throw a small stove in the fireplace surround...tight fit though so it would need to be real tiny...maybe a Hobbit or a ship's stove.

So, taking  a permie perspective since this is a forum for that kind of stuff...going back to permie ethics: care of the people, care of the earth, return of surplus.

Also, you seem interested in spending little, no need for comfort ("just don't freeze") and want some "independence" in your heating supply.

[1] earthcare: ditch the effing propane. It is a greenhouse gas creator, non-renewable and has a LONG supply chain that makes/keeps you totally dependent on outside systems.

[2] people care: ditch the effing propane (see the pattern here?)...burning it is toxic. Fires kill people dramatically . Carbon monoxide kills too but in your sleep. Nuff said.

This gives you some options.

[a] If I were really tight for money, I would:
- insulate the attic
- seal cracks in the ceiling with foam (from the  attic)
- seal cracks in the basement with foam
- insulate the basement walls
- plastic up the windows
- weatherstrip the doors and windows
- buy a couple of electric space heaters to "stop freezing"

[b] If I had a bit more money, I would:
-do everything above except buying electric heaters
- buy an electric heat pump with electric backup
- put in a nice little woodstove like a Jotul for backup / coziness if I had access to wood.

You will have a system that is [1] good to people (safe) and [2] good to the earth (electric and /or renewable wood energy). Long term North America is phasing out propane, oil, natural gas for heating so will be forced down this road ultimately. Along the "phase out" expect the propane/oil/gas prices to go WAY WAY up, so you will slao save money.

What I suggest will cost some money. The cheaper option (space heaters) will cost more  per year to run though. At a point though you will have to pay somehow for heating: either in conservation, better equipment or operating/fuel costs...if you own a house you gotta pay to run it!

By the way option #2  is exactly what I did except I don't need the wood stove and have an old wood fireplace if I need it for backup. Transitioned a 1950s rancher house that burned a LOT of oil by adding a shit-tonne of attic and basement insulation and crack sealing into a reasonably good building (still with single-paned windows though - - infinite payback on upgrading those) then kicked that oil furnace's ass to the recycling center for a heat pump (that came with air conditioning to help during this summer's heat bomb).

Scott:

You mention this area is quite flat and is wet for "many months". Does it have standing water, is it "gooshy" or is it just damp when you dig a hole?

Was this possibly a wetland before it got cleared?