I'd like to gently push this discussion back on track.
This is not really about the merits of eating vegan or vegan philosophy.
My conception ( could be wrong ) that if we humans were to restore nature,
the forests and the wildlife, the ecology that it would help to stabilize and
revitalize the homeostasis of the life zones of the planet and the elasticity
of the atmosphere.
Reforestation is one part of that, another part would be to stop abusing
the sea and the atmosphere.
I mentioned this somewhere and a vegan said you can do what he or she
called veganic permaculture. I was interested in the concepts and finding
out more and the differences from regular permaculture.
I see regular permaculture as being more outside the restoration of the
environment, and more like leveraging ecological systems to aid in producing
food. What I am talking about would not strictly be about producing food,
but it seems to me that if we had to design the world over it would make
sense to create wilds that in a safe sustainable way could produce food.
My feeling is that done right this would be equal to or superior to any
method we use now to produce food, especially if we put people to work,
gave them jobs managing the environment.
I agree with the point that we do not know everything about the environment
at this point, but so much of it is gone that I feel we would have to take the
chance if the chance ever arose and do the best we can. Mostly that means
The suggestion of veganic permaculture, seems to me on a large scale to be
one that would make vegans happy, but on a large scale that I am referring
to would actually take habitat away from animal life, so that thought which
did not occur to me before may be the first order answer to the problem.
Also I agree with the comments about animals doing work, that is, animals
promote vegetable growth, at least that is what I have heard. When you
prune a plant, or take a bite out of it, you stimulate growth is what I have
heard experts say. So animal live, hernivores, and I am not really talking
about "livestock" which has a certain connotation to factory farming. This
would be anything but, perhaps more like human predation of thinning.
My fantasy vision would be constraining human development to islands of
high density cities where industrial and cultural events can take place with
the rest of the land an interconnected garden managed by scientists,
students and vacationers, or those who would want to live a natural life.
Dangerous predators could be tagged and monitored so that they would
present no threat to people who would be warned by communication network
to get out of the way or the predator could be diverted by electronic means?
The point being to sustain the ecological diversity while still providing
a surplus for humans, perhaps supplemented with hydroponic or
I think the suggestion of veganic permaculture might have been because the
suggester did not realize what I was trying to get at. So, not only would animals
do the work in nature, including right down to insects and worms, but it now
from things mentioned here would seem to be necessary.
I don't have the whole concept thought out, and some of this I got from reading
Whole Earth Catalogs from decades ago on how to save the planet combined
with what new ideas and technology are out today.
So now I wonder just how or where veganic would fit in or be necessary. Some
of the reading I have done has shown that far from just doing work for humans,
many animals actually enjoy interacting with humans, ie dogs and cats for sure,
but also dolphins, horses, and I am sure there are others. I heard a radio show
a few weeks ago about a man who had a relationship with a dolphin where the
dolphin would leave to go out to sea, but would periodically return to spend time
with this man. I think food was not the issue here because he did not feed the
Humans love animals and animals can love humans as well as has been shown
with some of the nature shows in Africa. I think this kind of purist aesthetic of
assuming that the only way to appreciate animals is to leave them totally alone
can not be natural. Though there are lots of cruel and dysfunctional relationships
such as horse or elephant breaking ... but that is not the extent of all human
Thanks for all the ideas and comments, I hope people to continue to imagine this
along with me because I honestly fear for the future of all life on the planet, and
even if life continues, the status quo of today is not a very good model for that
into the future.