Tyler Ludens wrote:If you have predators such as foxes, you need to close the chickens into a secure shelter at night. To do this you have to actually be there, or have someone else do it for you.
tel jetson wrote:
paul wheaton wrote:I like the idea that with paddock shift you will cut those feed costs by about 80%
I don't think that just changing to a paddock shift would make such a difference in this instance. Cornish Cross chickens are notorious for not being terribly interested in foraging. they don't even particularly like to walk. so switching breeds might be required to reduce feed costs substantially.
I'm certainly in favor of better management practices like paddock shifting, because when it all the advantages are taken into account, it's a much better arrangement. but I don't think it's quite such an immediate or obvious payback.
Organic poultry have access to pasture , a nutrient source that has not been fully evaluated for use in poultry. Laying hens and broiler chickens given access to pasture may meet various nutrient needs through foraging.
Buckner et al. [4, 5] found that giving laying hens access to early-growth Kentucky bluegrass resulted in a 20% reduction in feed consumption and increased egg production compared with hens raised in confinement. Additionally, hens reared on alfalfa or Ladino clover need considerably less feed protein than confined hens . High-quality alfalfa hay can supply carotene, vitamin K, and vitamin E . Feed having only 11 to 12% protein* has been shown to be adequate for hens on good pasture . Additionally, Moritz et al.  reported that organically reared Ross broilers may overcome growth impairments associated with Met deficiency through foraging.
Poultry may obtain small amounts of energy from pasture forage (285 to 542 kcal/kg).**
Poultry have the ability to utilize amino acids found in forage. True amino acid digestibility values for Met, Lys, and Thr were approximately 88, 79, and 84%, respectively.
tel jetson wrote:
at that point, you'll have to take into account that the breeds that do forage better also take longer to reach market size. it can be the difference between a six to eight week grow out, and a ten to twelve week grow out. that's potentially twice as long. that would eat into the feed savings substantially.
C. ARE THERE ANY FEED SAVINGS WHEN POULTRY ARE ALLOWED TO GRAZE?
Experience of many pasture poultry producers is that 3.5 to 4 pounds of feed are required for each 1 pound of gain. Conventional poultry requires about 2 pounds of feed to get 1 pound of gain. It is entirely possible that pasture poultry requires up to twice the amount of feed as confined poultry.
Rufus Laggren wrote:Reading about Sep Holzer's work, it's struck me that most of the site techniques that go into permaculture require extensive use of heavy machinery, easily extending into hundreds of hours of machine time and thousands of gallons of fuel. This looks like a major requirement and cost to permaculture, at least to form the site initially.
John Polk wrote:If Sepp had been a total failure in his endeavors, nobody would have even noticed him.
He has had many successes, and all eyes turn to him. It's like painting a target on his back.
The nit-pickers are all looking for the flaw.
Perhaps, we should rename this thread "Sour Grapes".
paul wheaton wrote:Ute: Sepp Holzer did not invent Huegelkultur.
me: Did Holzer ever say that he invented hugelkultur? Did anybody say that holzer invented hugelkultur?
So, please help me to understand why it was important to bring this up. It seems we are talking about a really difficult and sensitive topic. Difficult enough without complicating the issue with this.
I wish to address many of the other points you have brought up, but my knee jerk reaction is quite similar to my reaction to this point. It could take years to unravel all of this stuff - but it seems like I must be missing the point as to why they are brought up for consideration at all.
At the moment it feels like (and I could be wrong) negativity toward holzer, and a lack of supporting stuff - so there is a bit of scraping the bottom of the barrel and the dressing up tiny things to make them appear bigger than they really are. If that is the case, it seems like a personal issue - not something worthy of a public forum; not something I wish to publish.
The root of this thread is that somebody suggested that holzer was a lessor person. It sounds like that woman had her day in court with holzer and holzer was found to be reasonable and the woman was put in jail for making up such nasty stuff. I find myself in the awkward position of some comments here appearing to slander holzer and then I need to figure out if I am okay with publishing those words.
On evaluation, like the judge, I am leaning toward favoring holzer. And by "leaning" I mean I have ropes attached to the ceiling keeping me from laying on the ground.
Another line of thought:
Let us suppose that that are 100 geniuses that pursue something like permaculture. And they all attempt to share what they have learned. And each one is subjected to fines and abuse for attempting to share what they have learned. 99 of them go silent. What is the personality of the one that is left standing?
Should we be shocked/surprised/offended at this personality?
For every person that accomplishes something great, there are 20 detractors that have accomplished nothing that will point at the one person and complain long and loud.