aaron sandvig

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since Jul 27, 2016
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{Warning: long post. Sorry}

Does anyone know of any good resources that deal with applying permaculture principles to commercial production?  I'm not thinking of a permaculture farm that sells at a local farmer's market, through CSA, or even to local restaurants.  I'm more thinking of adoption of permaculture principles by larger-scale commercial producers.  The only example I'm aware of is Mark Sheperd at New Forest Farm. Joel Salatin might fit in here, too, although he still relies pretty heavily on direct-to-consumer sales.  I think Mark Sheperd is on the right track in terms of translating permaculture principles to a wider audience.  For reasons I'll delineate shortly, I'm not interested in how to create a better forest garden or how to improve a homestead.  All worthy goals, but different from what I'm considering.  As of yet, I haven't come across any particularly substantial sources on this topic and I'm curious to hear whether anyone here has any suggestions.

The reason I raise this topic is that I have been non-systematically working over in my mind for some years the problem of how we try to convert traditional, commercial farmers to a more ecologically sustainable production model.  I live in a part of the world where the vast majority of our land is dedicated to commercial monocropping and commercial beef production.  I would guess it's a roughly 60-40 split in favor of grain production to grassland/pasture for cattle production.  We also suffer from the same problem going on throughout our country (and presumably much of the rest of the world) where historically family farms are being absorbed into larger commercial operations either through direct land sales or family trusts that simply lease land to other large farmers.  For those who do still farm, they are caught in a never-ending cycle of buying GMO seeds and chemical from the seed and chemical companies, planting, hoping for a good crop, putting their money into more seed and chemical or, in really good years, building "infrastructure."  By “infrastructure” I mean buying new, expensive farming equipment or vehicles, building new sheds for these vehicles, putting up large grain bins, etc. all largely driven by the need to avoid large tax bills in boom years.  In the bad years, the same cycle takes place but, rather than having a net profit to put back into the farming business, they are forced to incur debt for their operating budget which, if it goes on too long, inevitably leads to selling off the family farm.  What I envision is providing an alternative farming lifestyle to these farmers that allows them to 1) diversify their income streams, 2) divorce themselves from dependence on the seed and chemical companies, 3) remain competitive in a way that provides long-term financial sustainability without having to constantly increase their acreage and output, 4) keep family farms in the family, 5) allow more of a family's children to remain on the farm if they desire to do so, 6) increase the likelihood that the children of farmers actually want to stay on the farm as opposed to being scared away by the constant stress that uncertainty breeds, 7) provide clear and undeniable incentives to farmers to improve their land naturally and without chemical fertilizer inputs, and 8 ) a whole bunch of other reasons I may have forgotten to list here.  In summary, I want to show farmers an alternative that improves financial and ecological resilience while simultaneously improving lifestyle.

The gap I see in permaculture education today is that it stresses small-scale, local, and personal adoption of these principles.  A 10-acre site does not appear to a 10,000-acre farmer as a sufficient proof of concept.  Ben Falk does not speak to an Iowa corn farmer’s concerns. Nor do I think we can effectively convert farmers on a large enough scale by simply pointing out the long-term negative impacts of dependence on oil-hungry equipment, annual petroleum-based fertilize inputs, mass application of herbicide and pesticide to food products, or run off problems in our waterways.  At the end of the day, to convert current farmers, I believe we need to prove the clear commercial viability of an alternate farming system. The community here at Permies obviously believes that permaculture will improve nearly every marker of efficiency on an acre of actively managed ground with the exception being human labor.  And the work of those on this forum has gone a long way to prove this concept.  But, to tell a farmer that in order to switch his farm over to a permaculture-style farm he’ll have to increase his human labor and maybe even sell off some of his land in the process (because he can’t effectively manage 10,000 acres in the way he needs to) will require a fundamental reeducation.  But most people aren’t open to that sort of reeducation.  However, if we can first show that we can improve his long-term economic prospects and his lifestyle simultaneously, I think you might just get that farmer to listen long enough to start the conversion process.

I’m sure there are people out there besides Mark Sheperd doing this sort of work. But I haven’t come across it. What I’d like is to find sufficient examples that cover from the first steps of converting acreage all the way through reliable marketing of farm products.  Again, I am not trying to convert Mr. Corn Farmer to Mr. Tomatoes at the Farmer’s Market.  I’m trying to find viable options for a farm family to produce food products on a commercial-scale that they can sell in a variety of markets, including wholesale.  If they also start selling at the Farmer’s Market, then so be it.  But for my part of the world, that’s just not realistic for enough people because we are not near any major population centers.  So these farmers need to be able to send their products down the road somewhere.  Without getting into a conversation about whether and why local food is better, (I’ll admit, I’d prefer it) I’m trying to provide an incentive for corn and soybean farmers to farm chestnuts, pears, and pork instead.  

To provide an example of some of the types of information I think would be helpful in this venture, I’ll assume a scenario where a curious corn farmer will take a portion of his land and plant it with chestnuts.  Questions to be addressed would be:

Cost for conversion of ground:
o What infrastructure needs to be implemented before planting?
o What ground that I own would be well-suited to this type of venture?
o How many plants can/should I plant per unit of ground?
Output vs. maintenance costs
o How long to produce?
o Average production of a plant or grouping of plants in 3, 5, 10 years and beyond?
o Productive life of this new infrastructure and plants?
o Ongoing annual maintenance costs?
Marketing products
o Markets where I can sell my products?
o Historical prices for products sold at wholesale, farmers markets, etc?
o Value-added options?
• “Synergy
o While I’m waiting for production output to increase on my chestnuts, what other products can I integrate for cash-flow?
o Long-term, what other products can I integrate?
o Do my chestnut plants provide additional benefits to other operations I already have going?
Labor
o How much annual maintenance is required after establishment?
o How many man-hours per unit per year?
In this example, conversion from corn to chestnut is not a wholesale permaculture adoption. Rather, it’s more dipping your toe in the water. But, it provides the opportunity to expand and increasingly adopt permaculture-style methods to a farming operation. And while this farmer may never establish guilds throughout his farm, he will have reduced his oil and chemical dependency while improving his resiliency just a bit.

Rather than a PDC, this would be on-farm learning.  Farmers today can go to their local extension office or to land grant universities for a wealth of data and information on current, standard commercial agricultural practices.  But no such resources exists for permaculture-oriented farming.

Rather than ramble any longer, I’ll conclude my post. If my comments and questions are way off base, I’d be happy to hear any criticism.  But if anyone has any helpful directions to where I might delve a little deeper, I’d be especially open to hearing that.

Thanks, and Best Regards.
8 years ago
I live in north eastern South Dakota where tillable acres are expensive and wet lands are not.  More specifically, I live in the James (Jim) River Valley which is highly prized for monocropping agriculture.  I find decent deals on property that is seasonally flooded and prevents a guy in a huge tractor from planting corn when he wants to, i.e. in late May or early June.  I'm wondering about the possibilities for establishing a food forest in either swampy conditions or seasonally flooded areas? Part of the problem is that for some of the areas I've seen, you can have one year where much of the ground is mucky all season long or might even have pockets of standing water, and a few years later will be nearly bone dry after June.  My current line of thinking is to use something like hugelkultur mounds to raise the growing area slightly so the trees and shrubs don't drown during either seasonal inundations or even in those wetter years. (In effect, creating chinampas for trees and other woody crops rather than just annual veggies.)  I live in a Zone 4 climate.  We occasionally get above 100--regularly above 90--in the summers, and it's not unheard of to be in the -20 range for days in the winter with the occasional cold snaps of -30 in some years. Oh, and most of the ground I'm thinking of is pretty flat, so I don't think keyline swales would really factor much into planning such a venture.

I'm most particularly looking for in-depth sources, if anyone knows of any, that deal with these sorts of issues.  A good case study of someone who has really invested their energy in a wetland or seasonally flooded area for perennial agriculture would be great, especially one that's dealt with a wide variety of tree or shrub crops.  (Fruit, nuts, berries, etc.) I've spent years reading about this stuff, but am still new to actually planning and implementing. So I'm open to other ideas, as well.

Thanks, All.  
8 years ago

Casie Becker wrote:

This is a very interesting question. It is probably worth posting as it's own topic if you want more input. If I could add individual posts to more forums I would be connecting yours to the tree or forest garden forums to increase visibility. I do look forward to seeing what kinds of trees people suggest for a location with seasonal inundation. I could see that being useful in our area where trees commonly drown in clay soil during our rainy seasons.



Casie,

Thanks for the input. I wasn't really sure of the best place for my post.  I'm hoping it's not obnoxious to have the same post in various forums?
8 years ago
Thanks all for the replies, especially Travis Johnson.  

Travis, do you know the name of the recent decision you're referring to? And if not, do you know which specific law or laws they were interpreting? I would gladly review it to better understand current status.  As regards the Swampbuster Act, what I see on Wikipedia and a NRCS landing page for the topic, it appears to me that the Swampbuster Act aims to dissuade someone from farming wetlands by denying them USDA benefits, but does not provide for fines.  Other than farm grants, what types of USDA benefits would a permaculture farmer seek to utilize? The only one I'm aware of is federal crop insurance which I assume is largely unimportant to a small, permaculture farmer with a variety of crops that can guarantee a somewhat more steady income than an ordinary grain farmer.  But I'm new to this, so I'm not sure what it is that I don't know. And do you know whether any other federal laws apply that might impose fines.  To my knowledge (and I will have to research further), South Dakota does not impose fines for wetland conversion.  At most, we have nuisance laws that would prevent me from dumping my land's water onto my neighbor's fields.  

To clarify, the vision I have for this property (whether I can accomplish it I'm still not sure) is to plant trees and bushes throughout that would produce an annual food crop.  If dealing with the "wet feet" problem for some variety of crops (let's say apples or pears) can be accomplished by raised hugelkultur beds that would keep the trunks and some of the roots above water level, even during seasonal flooding, then that would seem like an "easy" solution.  Of course, it would be "easy" only after moving tons upon tons of wood and debris and then covering that debris to form mounds.  Perhaps in the alleys I could still plant some seasonal crops and/or graze animals.  

Regarding markets in the area, this has been one of the considerations that has slowed me down substantially in planning.  There is a growing "organic" market in the area.  But I don't think it's enough in itself to pay for the cost of land and the necessary improvements.  Mark Shepard on his New Forest Farm said he specifically avoids farmers markets and value added products.  He sells directly to wholesale.  Of course, he has Organic Valley co-op there in Wisconsin which makes it possible for him to do that.  I still need to explore my wholesale marketing options in that regard. In reality, I would prefer a combination of wholesale and direct-to-consumer sales.  An uncle also owns a nearby grocery store and I would attempt to put some products there as they are seasonally available, although that would be for brand marketing purposes more than income.  

Does anyone have any experience with food crops, specifically perennials, in a seasonally wet/flooded field? I'm still not finding more than cursory treatment of that issue on the interwebs. But perhaps I'm not searching for the right terms?

Thanks again for everyone who's responded.
8 years ago
Does anyone know of any in-depth sources for "wetland farming."  I know Mollison and others have touted the diversity in a wetland setting.  But, forgive the pun, when looking for reliable sources on commercially farming a wetland, I'm running into a bit of a dry hole.  

I live in north eastern South Dakota and regularly find parcels of land that are very inexpensive (per acre) when they are in the middle or near a wetland.  I am using the term loosely, because I'm not sure whether there's a distinct legal designation of "wetland" that would be applicable or not.  I am intrigued by chinampas. More importantly, I would like to do something like Mark Shepard's New Forest Farm, where it's not merely a homestead, but also (predominantly?) a commercial operation.  I would love to find a way to do agroforestry in these areas if it's possible. I would intend to raise a variety of animals.  And for areas that are unfarmable with agroforestry or market gardening, I would hope the income from the farming would allow me to set aside and develop as necessary the other areas for habitat for wild animals.  Imagine a combination farm and wildlife preserve.

As I see it, there are three categories of considerations: 1) legal issues pertaining to federal regulation of wetlands, 2) infrastructure development on seasonal wet lands, and 3) plant selection.

For reference, an example of some property I've seen available is here: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Henry-Township-Aberdeen-SD-57427/2098091373_zpid/

Most of this stuff is not wet year-round.  Twenty years ago, much of this area flooded after terrible blizzards and continued rains and snows over a few years.  This past year we have had historically wet sloughs become completely dry.  Drying has been a trend here for a few years now. I would like the ability to use land as best as possible in wet and dry years, whether that means a greater diversity of crops, or more investment in infrastructure up front.

Oh, and we are Zone 4.

Any thoughts, help, direction, snarky comments, or otherwise are appreciated.

8 years ago