Jay Angler wrote: The staff are reliable about keeping the discussions supportive and polite. When someone crosses the line, they're not just booted out, but are given the opportunity/option to edit their post in line with the supportive community rules we're teaching. It is possible to teach civility, but that's not a life skill that people are born with.
Dan Boone wrote:Jason, as hard as it is to accurately tell what people are feeling from the "tone" of what they type, I feel as if you might be somewhat frustrated by the (lack of) good answers to the very specific question that prompted you to start this thread. Instead you are getting a lot of the general philosophy that many of us here at Permies tend to apply when specific answers in the realm of ecological science are lacking ... which is the case, sadly, with respect to your question, at least as far as my own research has informed me. (I am not a scientist, just a good reader and competent web researcher.)
Dan Boone wrote:
I left out your discussion of legumes, but I wonder whether your question does not have built into it the assumption, common among permies, that every leguminous tree is nodulating (if the right bacteria are present) and therefore nitrogen-fixing. As near as I can tell, that assumption is false. Many (perhaps a great many) leguminous trees -- including many that are commonly found on lists of nitrogen-fixers, because they were put there by somebody who assumed all legumes are nitrogen-fixers -- cannot be confirmed by science to be nitrogen-fixing. By which I mean, not only is there no scientific paper in which somebody confirmed nitrogen-fixing ability with lab methods, but nobody out there has a YouTube video of roots they dug up with nodules visible. Basically, the lists of nitrogen-fixing trees that circulate among permaculture "experts" and publications are like those fantasy lists of dynamic accumulators that list all the wonderful minerals various plants make available -- there isn't any confirming science in most cases, but the lists circulate with apparent authority anyway.
Dan Boone wrote:
Is it frustrating? Oh, my, yes! My land is covered with native species of leguminous trees and shrubs and so far, when I've looked them up online, I have yet to find a single damned one of them that is a confirmed nodulating nitrogen fixer. Nor, in the digging that I've done, have I seen any nodules. Many questions. No good answers. Somewhat at odds with the standard orthodoxies of retail-level permaculture, the kind that you see in all the popular books and articles. And yet, there it is. The world does not always give us the easy-button that we seek.
s. ayalp wrote: I don't see where you are from Jason Yoon, OP, or which nitrogen fixing plant of yours lacking bacteria, what holds you asking for some nodules and soil from another permie and us from sending to you? Shipment is pretty fast in the US as I remember.
L. Tims wrote:Well I doubt that any tree-specific inoculants are available since that's more of a permie thing than a commercial thing. Likewise, I doubt that much research has been put into the bacteria themselves. So that's probably a dead end.
You might take a page from the anti-inoculant people's book, not by ignoring the problem but by using manure as an inoculant. If you can get some fresh organic cow manure I'd give that a shot on your trees. The stuff is loaded with beneficial microorganisms. Be sure to cover it with leaves so the sun doesn't sterilize it.
Gail Gardner wrote:I don't know about usage specifically for trees, but in the FAQs for MycorrPlus it says: "Nitrogen applications: MycorrPlus contains nitrogen fixing bacteria , but it takes 4 to 5 months for them to really start working. If you normally apply nitrogen, some N may be needed until the nitrogen fixing bacteria have a chance to really kick in."
That is from https://ag-usa.net/application.php
L. Tims wrote:I think they are all Rhyzobia though, and that the inoculants you can buy are a blend so that they can sell them for different things. Could be wrong.
Edit- they definitely sell inoculants that are supposed to be good for multiple plants. Whether that's just sales hype or if they do put all the right ones in, idk.