Shannon Kim

R Scott wrote:I am definitely interested in how to do this without a loom.  

I like to crochet rag rugs (no loom needed!). You could still make a rectangular one if you wanted, or an oval or circular one. I sew so I use the selvedges (the edge of a fabric you get, where it was attached to the loom when made) and edges cut off of repurposed bed sheets for my rugs. Some people sew the ends of the scraps together - that's a bit much for me, so I just tie the ends in a knot (place both ends together first, then do a square knot - much more durable), and then make sure all the knots end up on the bottom of the rug. It gives it some extra cushion which is kinda nice! I just use the biggest crochet hook I have. You can find lots of sizes of them at Joann's, and if you use a coupon (they always have one on their main site) it's even cheaper!

Also it feels good making use of things that would otherwise be thrown away.

If you haven't learned to crochet yet, it's really easy (especially the single crochet stitch, which is all you need for this). It's just pulling a loop through a loop. You just have to make sure you're not pulling whatever you're working with too tightly, so you can easily get your hook through the loop you want, and pull the new loop through!

Heather Sharpe wrote:

Stefanie Hollmichel wrote:I have a 6-month old Salmon Faverolle and live in MN. Mine is a small backyard urban flock. The coop is elevated off the ground and the run is partially under the coop, the rest of the run is roofed. The whole thing is surrounded with plastic sheeting to keep wind and snow out so the run stays really dry. I've got straw on the ground in the run and add more each week, and yeah, they dig through the straw. I don't have trouble with the ground being damp, the soil beneath the straw is really sandy. So far both her beard and feet seem to be staying dry. Not sure if any of this information will help. Good luck!

Sounds like a fairly similar set up to mine, with the exception of the soil underneath. The soil under my run is clay-heavy but has had some years worth of leaves dumped on it prior to us putting the run there. It's not usually mucky, but it does hold water. This is making me wonder if there might be opportunity to improve the drainage in the soil surrounding the run as a way to improve the situation long term. There was basically nothing but honeysuckle in this spot for a long time, so nothing else could grow. I wonder if getting lots of plants growing around the run could help the soil drain better. Maybe particularly some deep rooted plants to break up that clay. I was going to plant the area now that it's opened up anyway, but this might shift my choices a bit. It'll be interesting to see what changes! That did help, as I hadn't thought about what I might be able to do in the coming seasons to possibly make this better in the future. Thanks for sharing!

I've read that daikon radishes are a great, cheap way to break up difficult soil. Then you can pull them to get better drainage. I did look up just to check, and it said both the leaves and radishes are healthy for chickens. Not sure if they would let them grow much if they could get to them? I'm not sure if this would be an option, but you could move the chickens to another spot while you increase the drainage of where they normally are, then move them back.

elle sagenev wrote:

Shannon Kim wrote:

elle sagenev wrote:My experience is that there is no real point planting a food forest in WY. I've planted pretty much everything. Some of it has lived now that I've transplanted everything into a heavily protected and watered area. We have 2 plum trees that have survived the wilds for 5 years but they've never had a single plum on them. Ground animals absolutely adore anything you do earth works wise. They're favorite! Having plants under the trees just increases coverage for nibblers from predators. If we had a million cats and watered daily and yeah, probably had less wind, things would grow. It's not meant for our climate.



P.S. The state capitol has some chinese chestnut trees brought from China ages ago growing and producing yearly. They look magnificent. Perhaps blight is only an issue when you have other trees spreading it about. :P

Have you tried growing Serviceberry? How about Strawberry Spinach, Yuccas, sunflowers?
Nanking Cherry can be grown into a tree.
https://wyomingplantcompany.com/product/nanking-cherry/
How about elderberry?
Crandall's clove currant is a shrub that should do well there.
https://wyomingplantcompany.com/product/crandall-clove-currant/
Jerusalem artichokes do well in Montana, according to an article by Paul Wheaton. That would be a good emergency food crop, if you haven't tried it already.
Hope this helps!

I know your heart is in the right place with these recommendations but allow me to assure you there is nothing I haven't done.

I certainly didn't intend to make you feel worse about things.

I really appreciate you sharing your experience. We learn and grow best by hearing from people who have actually gone out there and tried it. I applaud your efforts. It really stinks that things didn't turn out like you'd hoped.

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:another factor I'd forgotten but is mentioned on Perfect Circle's site, and is a part of how they source their material: mother trees.  anyone have info to contribute on this? observations?  

Thanks for bringing up mother trees/ hub trees. I'd never heard of them. Was just reading about them on https://mothertreeproject.org/about-mother-trees-in-the-forest/ . Sounds like mycorrhizal networks play a big part.

Saw this, which I thought was fascinating: "Through the network, trees under stress can transfer resources, such as water, and can send chemical signals that trigger defensive mechanisms in other trees."

William Bronson wrote:So many great things shared here, one question comes to mind.
What should a food forest do?
My own land is dedicated to making a living in a way that is sustainable.
That doesn't necessarily mean growing all of my own food.
Selling firewood could be a sustainable way of living off your own land.
So is selling sweet corn and watermelon.
Is there a similar way to look at food forests, but with a communal twist?

My sister is a chef that works teaching people to cook from scratch, so they can eat better for less.
One of the ministers she knows has been asked to take over some land and make it work feeding  the community.
Annual gardens could help, but who will tend them?
Fruit trees could work, but kids in this community throw out apples rather than eat them.
Many of these families that don't know how to take a bag of potatoes and turn it into somethings their kids want to eat.
Because of these facts growing food for direct consumption seems likely to fail.

My suggestion was raspberry bushes, hazel nut bushes and Chestnut trees.
Raspberries can be eaten out of hand, and kids actually like them.
The raspberries and the nuts both can be turned in to value added products.
That's the key to me.
If the church can offer a  place to sell the nuts and berries, the community might have reason to participate.
No long term commitments, just a safe way to make some money.
Turning the raspberries into pies, juices, preserves, and teas can be a job and could  turn into a business.
Roasting nuts can be a job that could become a business.
The target market is well to do people that value fresh, local, artisanal food and social welfare.
Nutella from local bushes ,locally grown roasted chestnuts at served at hipster bars, selling these staples as luxuries might feed the community and promote the food itself.
The church would offer all the means of production, including knowledge , kitchen space and marketing.
Getting people outside and directly involved with plants as a source of money will lead to opportunities to educate.
Some people will want to grow annuals or other plants that can create income, and that can be accommodated, but the base will be perennial foods that require minimal annual investment.
If no one is interested, the wildlife will benefit, with little in the way of waste.
A bumper crop of nuts or berries don't seem leave the waste that a similar crop of fruit does.

What are ways you can think of that would make a food forest an asset to the community as it exists. vs. the community we desire?

Wanted to mention that if a child plants and grows something themselves, they will be much more likely to eat it and enjoy it. If you started a program for kids - a quick, simple, inexpensive way to get them excited about planting and growing is to plant popcorn seeds for microgreens. Only takes 2 weeks and it's done! Then you could work up from there. But I think the quick turnaround in the beginning helps get them hooked. :D

I remember watching a video where they taught preschoolers or kindergarteners about how important it was to get more fruits and veggies, and this program led to the kids making healthier recommendations to their parents while shopping! I thought that was pretty amazing.

I like how you're proposing to work with what is, not what we want it to be. I think sugar consumption is one of the big problems - varieties with a higher natural sugar content might help convert more people to seeing fruits and veggies as good options.

elle sagenev wrote:My experience is that there is no real point planting a food forest in WY. I've planted pretty much everything. Some of it has lived now that I've transplanted everything into a heavily protected and watered area. We have 2 plum trees that have survived the wilds for 5 years but they've never had a single plum on them. Ground animals absolutely adore anything you do earth works wise. They're favorite! Having plants under the trees just increases coverage for nibblers from predators. If we had a million cats and watered daily and yeah, probably had less wind, things would grow. It's not meant for our climate.



P.S. The state capitol has some chinese chestnut trees brought from China ages ago growing and producing yearly. They look magnificent. Perhaps blight is only an issue when you have other trees spreading it about. :P

Have you tried growing Serviceberry? How about Strawberry Spinach, Yuccas, sunflowers?
Nanking Cherry can be grown into a tree.
https://wyomingplantcompany.com/product/nanking-cherry/
How about elderberry?
Crandall's clove currant is a shrub that should do well there.
https://wyomingplantcompany.com/product/crandall-clove-currant/
Jerusalem artichokes do well in Montana, according to an article by Paul Wheaton. That would be a good emergency food crop, if you haven't tried it already.
Hope this helps!

Wanted to mention that crabapples are edible. Sure, they can be a bit sour. I don't mind. I think they're a perfect size for a snack.

Also, if you want to grow from seed, getting the seed from produce at local farmer's markets would make the trees and other plants more likely to do well in your area. I read this in Joseph Lofthouse's book, Landrace Gardening: Food Security through Biodiversity and Promiscuous Pollination. I would think it would apply equally to trees and plants in food forests as to getting seed inputs for creating a landrace.

And honestly, landraces would probably be a good idea for a food forest. If you could start out with landrace seed for a specific plant, some of it would likely do well. Even if you just planted a grex (multiple varieties of the same species), you could see what happens. Nature will sort out what will do well and what won't, with the inputs you have available to give (ex: watering, compost, weeding). Plus, if it is a species that can cross, you will have hybrid vigor in the mix from the 2nd generation on.

I think a 'landrace lens,' if you will, would be a healthy way to look at food forests. Some trees and plants are not going to do well. We are attempting to garden like nature, with forests, which is not an easy task! Looking at it as an experiment and employing survival of the fittest seems like a good way to go.

I think any practices that would increase beneficial soil microbes would be worthwhile, and help the health of the trees.

Also hugelkulture is amazing, and a great way to build up soil networks, let alone have to water less.

I think grafting, like others have mentioned, is a really smart idea. Especially if a food forest isn't spacious enough to seed for trees and hope for the best. Then you can use rootstock that are well-adapted to the area, and graft on varieties you would like to have but that wouldn't grow well from seed.

I read a lot. Hope some of my rambling is helpful. :) Will be moving to North Carolina in a few months.

Just wanted to mention that there are also electric assist bicycles that are enclosed - not sure if that would be a need/ be helpful, or not. Tried to find a good option under 4K but didn't have any luck at least on amazon shopping. Not sure how much towing weight they could handle, but just wanted to make sure you knew it was an option. Know that some have seats for 2 people, and even extra space in the back, also enclosed. Maybe there's someone who has more experience with this type of bike/bikes.

randal cranor wrote:Howdy,

Years ago, I once read that to obtain a starter from a loaf of bread that you liked, all you had to do was get a good handful of the inside white part, wad it up into a ball, add some water, and incorporate this into your starter. I actually did this to get a sour dough starter, started.  

And also went on to sell 10-12 sour dough loaves  twice a week, along with some other folks who were baking and selling 24 loaves of home baked ww bread.

I'll have to try this! Sourdough is my favorite.