Drew Wilkinson

Thank you all for the replies. Let me clarify since my original post was a little bit unclear for soil layers.

I have 3 layers in total.
Reasonable soil 0-6" approximately.
100% dense clay @ 6" - 24-48" below grade. Location specific.
Fine sand @ 24-48" below grade. For roughly 100'.

Since the clay layer is so thick and pure, it essentially caps the reservoir of water held in the sand, so that when I dig a hole in the spring water will bubble up similar to an artesian well.

Cristobal I like your suggestion, but still have a couple questions. First of all I do have a backhoe attachment for a track loader so digging is the easy part and not a limiting factor.

First: should I attempt to breach the clay layer into the sand before backfilling with dirt, to allow for summer drainage, even if it allows more water to rise up into the space during the spring? Or alternatively would leaving the bottom of the hole clay be the better option?

Second: Any suggestions for acquiring decent fill dirt? I have acreage and plenty of soil, but since it's either tall grass or forest and everything below the topsoil is clay whenever I dig for backfilling I'm just digging up a fat 6" piece of sod full of roots from grasses, etc.. i want to be self sustainable and not truck in dirt from off-site but not sure how to make what I have into adequate material.

I have tried to plant several fruit trees on my property and so far have had a 100% failure rate. I plan on using an underground welded wire cage and above ground spiral tree guard to eliminate gopher/rabbit risks that I've had problems with in the past.

From there my next worry is what to do about the soil composition. I have roughly 6" of topsoil (used to be a hay field) 2' of extremely hard clay (when dry in the summer) following by endless sand that contains a year round aquifer with static water being at 6' deep in August to between 18" and 2' during spring. When digging a hole the clay layer acts as a barrier so the water from the sand only rises into the hole when that layer is pierced. Alternatively no drainage from the hole can properly occur in the summer unless the barrier is broken and water can freely soak down into the sand.

I feel like with the right method of planting I have a wonderful area for potentially sub irrigated fruit trees. The rest of the natural forest (almost every species of tree found in N Idaho) do extremely well.

I've read differing opinions on whether to dig a deep hole vs a shallow hole for fruit trees, whether or not to backfill underneath the planted tree, etc.. I would love to hear any opinions on what the best approach may be for my well drained/poorly drained/high water table/low water table seasonally effected property.

Hey Thomas,

I realized my mistake not long after posting, I'm familiar with quite a bit of Western Montana, make it as far as Thompson falls/Libby pretty regularly in the Summer and Whitefish/Bigfork other times of the year.

Thanks for the suggestion on the Paloma water heater, I haven't done a huge amount of research on tankless propane heaters but I do know the options are a bit overwhelming. I'll put that one on my list so I know where to look when I'm ready to buy.

That's good to hear about the Sundanzer, unless I hear of an equally efficient and long lasting model for a cheaper price I'll probably go for that option.

I did a little bit of looking at LED flat panels, do you have them installed? They almost seem like overkill for lighting. I was kind of just assuming I would mainly do recessed lighting that would take replaceable low wattage LED bulbs. I'll admit I definitely don't have the design figured out though so I appreciate the suggestion.

Oh yeah batteries, this is probably my most dreaded subject. I want the ones that last 50 years but don't cost very much, and don't require any maintenance (I'm not that delusional). I understanding wiring in series/parallel, so beyond getting some 6v deep cycle batteries and wiring them to my desired voltage, I really don't have a solid plan yet. I realize I have to size my battery system to allow for non-power generating downtime, so I'm leaning toward lead-acid because I doubt I can afford anything else at the storage capacity I need. Brands and specifics though? Work in progress.

I definitely plan on using an Inverter unless there are specific items that run solely off DC, like that Sundanzer? I plan on having all outlets and lighting be inverted to 110. Also haven't decided on a size for this either.

Finally to the Rocket mass heater. I'll admit I was skeptical. I briefly read about them on this forum, saw your post about them and read again briefly. After that I mulled it over and started watching some videos and really started to grasp the concept. I feel pretty silly for not taking the idea seriously sooner, because I will definitely be building one of those. In my 16X24 Cabin plan I've been struggling a little bit with where to put a small woodstove without taking up too much space. I love the idea of the efficiency of the stove (who wouldn't?) and having a heated area that doubles as a place to sit along the wall? That's awesome, functionality and efficiency. I explained the concept to my wife as well and she's also pretty excited about it.

I'll be spending more time on this forum when it comes to design and materials for the heater, but I'm definitely on board.

Cheers!

Thanks for the additional info Thomas,

I have seen the prices on ranges/fridges/heaters, etc.. So I do have an idea of the additional cost involved. My property is West of Sandpoint toward Laclede, I venture over to the Elk Barn in Trout Creek a few times a year for work, I'm guessing you know where that is.

I am in a fairly convenient location where I have pressurized water from a 100GPM well already installed on my property. (I dug the 800' trench and installed the pipe last year) I have family nearby that are grid-tied which powers the well pump, I'm just trying my hardest not to pay the utility company $14,000 for an install plus the minimum monthly payment for the rest of my life. That being said my water pressure will be just fine for a propane water heater, plus I wont have to run an electrical water pump to maintain pressure in the house. I know it's cheating but maybe you'll forgive me.

I realize the dishwasher will be me, I was only using that as a comparison between my current usage, and potential usage once I am living in a cabin where I will definitely NOT be installing a dishwasher.

Do you have any thoughts on the new SUNDANZER Refrigerators? The 10.2CF DC Electric model (DCRF290) claims to only use 0.5KWH per day in a 70 degree space. Price tag is $1,400 but it seemed like a decent option to me.

I realize my hydro situation is not ideal being low head, but with all the snow on my property right now it's going to be a while before I can break ground on the cabin project. I have some free time in the next couple of months and was thinking about fabricating the wheel ahead of time. I'm sure you're right though I should wait and do things in a sensible order, like building my flume and sizing the wheel to the actual head once I have more established at the property.

I didn't realize that about alternators, and will definitely be more careful during the testing phase than I would have been.

Thanks for the suggestion about the RMH, I've been reading a little bit about them since I found this site (a couple days in all). I've always used normal wood stoves which seem to put out enough heat and provide some level of ambiance in the house. I'll give them another look though to consider all possibilities.

I'm definitely far from burned out, I've been doing a lot of reading on my own and it's nice to talk to someone with experience about my situation.

Thomas, Thanks for the reply!

You are correct on the math, let me clarify some more. My intention with stating a (minimum) of 50 watts would be to produce at least 1.2KWH per day from the system. I realize this is a small amount, which is why I want to make sure I don't create something more useless and completely waste my time. Double that would be better but I'm mainly just trying to find a realistic baseline that I can shoot for with my current situation.

I measured 240GPM out of a 3' Culvert currently located on the up-stream side of the property, and you are correct I would need to measure the flume rate instead. Advice on how large to size this would also be appreciated since I haven't built it yet either.

I was thinking of something like the Wind Blue DC500 PMA and gearing the system to achieve 1200 rpm's (12 volts) ideally. I'm not sure if this is feasible so any input would be appreciated. Max RPM on this unit is 10,000 and with my flow rate I don't think that would ever be an issue. Now that I think about this some more I have no idea if those kind of RPMS are even realistic, and if they aren't would a different alternator system be more functional?

Battery storage would be approximately 80' from the water wheel, depending on the length of the flume of course.  The only two structures on the property are a 12X16 storage shed with larch siding and a 10X20 roof for the sawmill. I have flexibility on where I build a cabin, however it would be ideal to split the difference between viable solar and hydro areas. The creek runs north to south on the west side of the property, with potential build sites not far away at any point. Due to the tree line however ideal solar panel placement would be 80-100' due east (opposite direction from the build site).

These are all factors I'm trying to figure out to establish the correct spot to start the foundation this spring.

A few more notes: I currently live in town with natural gas for backup heat, (primary wood stove) water heater, and range. My normal electricity usage is 4 KWH per day on average. An efficient fridge/freezer combo could easily cut down 1KWH and not having a dishwasher would also save a fair amount(Haven't metered, logged, or calculated actual usage on this) I plan on moving from a 1500 square foot townhouse to a 400 square foot cabin with propane for all the same features I have on natural gas in town. In my mind this puts me at a baseline of requiring approximately 3KWH per day produced through Hydro/Solar. If I can achieve half of that (or more) with the hydro system I would be very happy since I could count on important things like the fridge/freezer/a couple LED lights to be essentially guaranteed. Assuming the water wheel isn't completely frozen over or stuck with branches, or whatever else happens to water wheels..

Please correct me if I'm making any ridiculous assumptions, and thanks again!

Hello everyone,

I am planning a hydro project to help power a small off-grid cabin in Northern Idaho. I have property with a creek currently flowing at a rate of 240GPM. The creek flows for 500 linear feet across my property, however the head is fairly low as a whole dropping only about 1' per 25 feet of run in places, less in others.

I am hoping to get at least 50 watts usable power with a home-made cedar water wheel and a low RPM PMA. I plan on offsetting my additional power needs with a solar array, however the less I have to collect from the sun the better, since my neck of the woods is pretty cloudy all winter.

Some additional background: I am not afraid of building the wheel and a 100' sluice box to get at least a 4' overshot wheel, however I want to know if going longer and higher will be worth the time and energy. I wouldn't want to divert the water the extra distance for small diminishing returns.

My experience lies in woodworking, I have a small sawmill on the property with the ability to build anything I need out of wood for very little overall cost so utilizing a Turbine is pretty much out of the question even if it is a little more efficient.

Any information from people with more abilities in Math or Experience would be great.

Thanks!