Joe Jenkins

"Ascaris eggs develop at temperatures between 60° and 95°F (15.5°C and 35°C), but the eggs disintegrate at temperatures above 100.40° F (38°C ). The temperatures generated during thermophilic composting can easily exceed levels necessary to destroy roundworm eggs." Humanure Handbook 4th edition, page 185.

There is a lot more information about this pathogen, and most others, in the book.

https://slateroofwarehouse.com/Books/Joseph_Jenkins_Books/Humanure_Handbook

Eric Hanson wrote:Does anyone know of any foods, herbs, etc. ANYTHING that can help restless leg syndrome?

As it stands I do have a prescription to help RLS, but it is only so-so and is intended to use at night.  On occasion I have used it during the day with mixed results (it does not make me tired).  I can get up and move around, but immediately upon sitting down my legs want to absolutely crawl.  Right now my legs have a borderline awful crawling feeling in them bad enough that it is hard to concentrate.

I have found that compression garments do provide some measure of relief and have found a couple of brands of compression pants that provide considerable compression on my legs without being tight, especially in the waist.  I wear them commonly in under regular pants and typically they do provide a good deal of comfort/relief without medication—a real plus.

But today NOTHING seems to help.  Not compression, not my regular prescription, not muscle relaxers, not even exercise.  Does anyone else have this malady and have any useful way to alleviate the symptoms?

Thanks in advance,

Eric  

The cure for restless leg syndrome (assuming it's occurring during sleep at night) is to get up, urinate, drink water, then go back to bed. This actually works.

Cristo Balete wrote:One more general remark about composting human waste in outdoor piles.  A lot of things we organic gardeners do work, and get us the results we want, but we aren't the only players to consider in the environment.   I am not comfortable with an outdoor pile of human waste covered with compost so it looks innocent,  because the animals will get into it, like foxes and bobcats chasing rodents.  Snails get on the pile and ravens and crows land on it to get the snails.  Rabbits love a hot pile of compost to put a baby nest near the edge of.   I don't want them licking their paws, taking $%&* back on their feet/talons  to where they babies are.

The list goes on and on about how we affect every creature in our ecosystem that surrounds us by the things we leave in the environment.   All of these critters are crucial to maintaining the balance of the natural system that allows us to function in it.

That's on me if something bad happens in that regard.  I'm trying to cohabitate where I am, not just make it easy for me, not paying attention to what is happening to my animal co-workers.

Clearly you have never made compost, let alone compost from humanure, which you incorrectly refer to as "waste." After making compost from humanure for 43 years (in a waste free manner) I can say without any doubt that your comments are totally incorrect and misleading at best, although not uncommon among people who don't know what they're talking about (and I'm stating this as fact, not as an insult). Take a look at my latest video, published a day or two ago, to get a better idea of what composting actually is:  

Cristo Balete wrote:Even the LovelableLoo video says it's not a composting toilet, it's just a "collection device" for composting elsewhere.

The threads at this site should probably make a bigger distinction among composting in

(1) composting toilet with a tank,

(2) bucket system that is composted out of doors

(3) A cesspit dug into the ground with no container, which is what this thread is talking about.

"A bucket system that is composted out of doors" would correctly be referred to as a "compost toilet system." To quote the 4th edition of the Humanure Handbook (Chapter 12, page 159), "There are two words that should never be used in association with compost toilets. One is “waste,” as I have repeatedly mentioned, and the other is “bucket.” Some compost toilets utilize five-gallon buckets as toilet receptacles. Others use drums, urns, barrels, bins, or any receptacle that is water-tight and manageable, depending on the situation. Five gallons or approximately twenty liters is a good capacity for easy handling by one person, and a five-gallon container will hold approximately one week’s excretions of one typical adult, assuming an appropriate cover material is used. Five-gallon plastic buckets are easy to come by in some countries, such as the US, where they can be acquired cheaply or for free when recycled. In other countries, believe it or not, they can be nearly impossible to find. Some people who grow up in water toilet cultures can become perturbed at the idea of using a compost toilet. One person posted on a blog during Cape Town, South Africa’s severe drought in 2018, “I’m not going to shit in a bucket. That’s disgusting!” I responded that they would be shitting in a compost toilet, as opposed to shitting in a pot of drinking water. Funny that defecating in drinkable water is not considered disgusting at all, even when the potable water supply had dwindled to dangerous levels and was looking like it might dry up completely..."

Richard Gorny wrote:The intended topic of this post was:

how to convert such outhouse into a proper humanure composting operation

This issue is discussed in detail in the 4th edition of the Humanure Handbook, published in May 2019. Here's an important excerpt:

"Remember that composting, by definition, requires (1) human management, (2) aerobic conditions, and (3) the generation of mesophilic and thermophilic heat by microorganisms. “Composting toilets” is a misnomer. Composting is unlikely to take place inside any toilet receptacle because sufficient biological heat will not be generated, for several reasons. For one, the mass of the collected toilet material may be too small; for another, the collected material may be too dry due to urine separation or intentional dehydration; for another, the toilet material may be anaerobic. Most devices that people call “composting toilets” would be correctly referred to as “dry toilets” or “biological toilets,” but they should not be referred to as “composting” devices. They do not make compost; instead, the result is decayed organic material, or what’s known as “septage,” which has not been subjected to the biological temperatures of true compost and is therefore not sanitary. A 2017 research study pointed out that “conditions required for pathogen or parasites die-off. . . . are seldom or never achieved in UDDTs [urine diverting dry toilets] feces chambers in real situations.” [Humanure Handbook 4th edition Chapter 12, pages 144-145]

To make compost, generally a compost bin approximately one cubic meter or larger in volume is required. To make compost from toilet material, the material is collected in a "compost toilet" and then composted in a separate compost bin where true composting conditions can be achieved. Otherwise, toilets that collect toilet material without water but don't compost the material are actually "dry toilets," certainly NOT "composting" toilets.

"In 2018, the US Composting Council (USCC) defined compost as the product manufactured through the controlled aerobic, biological decomposition of biodegradable materials. The product has undergone mesophilic and thermophilic temperatures, which significantly reduces the viability of pathogens and weed seeds and stabilizes the carbon such that it is beneficial to plant growth. The Association of American Plant Food Control Officials (AAPFCO) approved the new definition for compost because it emphasized the pathogen-removing thermophilic process, differentiating it from many products often confused with compost. This more completely defines what our products are so that people out there wanting to call their products compost cannot do that without meeting this definition, said Ron Alexander, the USCC's liaison to AAPFCO, who had labored for years on the updated definition. A lot of people call a lot of things compost, incorrectly, and it’s hurting the composting industry. We don't want to have the compost industry's product being confused with other products after all the work we've invested in best practices and quality product standards, said Alexander. The new definition helps the producers of other products, from biochar to mulch to dehydrated food, worm castings, and anaerobic digestate, to more clearly differentiate their products as not being compost. For example, “vermicompost” is a misnomer. The correct term is “vermiculture.” The end product of vermiculture is not compost; it’s worm castings. Vermiculture is not dominated by aerobic microorganisms generating biological heat. It’s dominated by red worms. Thermophilic microorganisms would kill those worms. The final product is not the same as compost, and it should not be called compost. Nor should a lot of other things that are referred to as compost." [Humanure Handbook 4th edition Chapter 8, page 70]

Tyler Ludens wrote:I don't want to purchase wood shavings for composting toilet, so I'd like to know if leaves and forest duff, of which I have plenty, is a good substitute.  Is there a particular reason people use shavings, or is it just convenience and aesthetics?  Are leaves not sufficiently absorbent?

Thanks for any insight.

Tyler,

Shavings is one of the least desirable cover materials in a compost toilet (not "composting" toilet). Leaves and forest duff are much better. Shavings have wood particles that are too big and too dry. They also allow air to pass through them, including odor. Yes, they work in big municipal piles, but if you're doing backyard composting and all you have is wood shavings for cover material in your toilet, pile the shavings outside where they can get wet from rain and let them rot before using them.

Here's an excerpt from the 4th edition of the Humanure Handbook, Chapter 14, page 215 (available here: http://humanurehandbook.com/downloads/H4/Ch_14_Tao_Compost.pdf)

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE COVER MATERIAL
For a water toilet to function, you need water. For a compost toilet to function, you need a carbon-based cover material. This is the limiting factor with compost toilet systems. If you don’t have the cover material, you won’t have a compost toilet. When I travel to a far-off land to help people set up compost toilets, the first thing I look for is the cover material. You can’t use ashes, you can’t use sand, you can’t use lime, and you can’t use dirt. It must be a plant cellulose material. Cover materials we have successfully used around the world include sugarcane bagasse, which is ground and shredded sugarcane stalks used in the sugar and rum industries, found in most tropical climates. It contains residual sugar as well as cellulose, and microbes love it. Of course, sawdust can be found worldwide. The best is what comes from cutting trees into boards, beams, or posts. Sawdust is not wood chips and it is not wood shavings. Chips come from a chipper and they’re too big for bacteria to eat. Shavings come from planing machines, and they also produce relatively large pieces of wood, which bacteria have a hard time dealing with. In big municipal compost piles, wood shavings may work just fine, given enough time. In backyard compost piles they will slow your pile down, especially if kiln-dried. Rice husks or hulls, a by-product of the rice industry, are often used for cover material. They also tend to slow down the compost in smaller piles, but they do work. The byproducts of cassava distilleries have been successfully used as cover materials when composting sewage sludge in China. Other promising cover materials in compost piles include olive mill by-products and sweet sorghum bagasse. A lady in California emailed me and said that she had been using a compost toilet for years but had trouble finding cover material, so she got a chipper/shredder and started shredding blackberry brambles, describing them as “an invasive nuisance around here...they are very abundant and grow quickly (about 15 feet a year). Smaller branches and twigs with leaves on them (usually willow around here) can also be shredded into a great cover material.”

https://humanurehandbook.com/store/Humanure_Handbook.html

Joe Jenkins

Angelika Maier wrote:We don't have a lot of time and turning compost takes time. And we're getting older! So which no turn compost works best and how to best inoculate? I don't want a compost tumbler, it is way too small for our garden. We have a big compost at the moment, four bays.

Angelika,

There is no reason to turn compost in bins. It's a myth. This is discussed in detail in the Humanure Handbook 4th edition, Chapter 11, beginning on page 125. Here is a partial excerpt:

"What is one of the first things that comes to mind when one thinks about compost? Turning the pile. Early researchers who wrote seminal works in the composting field, such as King, Howard, Gotaas, and Rodale, emphasize turning compost piles. For example, Robert Rodale wrote in the February 1972 issue of Organic Gardening, “We recommend turning the pile at least three times in the first few months, and then once every three months thereafter for a year.”  A large industry has emerged from this philosophy, one that manufactures expensive compost turning equipment, and a lot of money, energy, and expense go into making sure compost is turned regularly. For some compost professionals, the suggestion that compost doesn’t need to be turned at all is utter blasphemy. Of course, you have to turn it — it’s a compost pile, for heaven’s sake.  Or do you? Well, in fact, no, you don’t, especially if you’re a back-yard composter, or even if you’re a large-scale composter. The perceived need to turn compost is one of the myths of composting...

This goes on for quite a few pages. Open windrows may need to be turned, but compost in bins does not. You can read it fee online here: http://humanurehandbook.com/downloads/H4/Ch_11_Compost_Myths.pdf

Links to the book are here: https://humanurehandbook.com/store/Humanure_Handbook.html

Videos are here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFD5D0CE103FD3A56

Joe Jenkins

Angelika Maier wrote:We will be doing a workshop on composting. And I never liked these plastic bins. My gut feeling says that you cannot make decent compost in them because 1) there is not much air flow and 2) they are way too small. Councils like them.  What do you think? Does the compost get anaerobic in them? (I find them very ugly too)

This is discussed in the Humanure Handbook 4th edition. I'll excerpt here:

One of the reasons dry toilets don’t reach and maintain thermophilic conditions is that the volume of the material inside the toilet chamber is too small. One interesting research study published in 2007 compared temperatures achieved in three different “backyard” compost containers: a plastic bin, a wooden bin, and a small open pile. The volumes were small by composting standards at 74 gallons each for the plastic bin and the open pile, and 209 gallons for the wooden bin. The organic mix was made from plant material; no food scraps or manures were used. A hundred cubic meters of the mix were generated using shredding machines; 30 cubic meters were used in the numerous bins being tested, while the remaining 70 cubic meters were left in a pile. To make a long story short, none of the bins achieved thermophilic temperatures. The maximum temperature reached was about 77°F (25°C ), whereas the temperatures in the big left-over pile ranged from 104°F (40°C) to 158°F (70°C). The researchers concluded that “the small volume of material is thought to be the most likely cause of the lack of temperature increase.” They also suggested that bins of at least a cubic meter in size “have greater potential to maximize heat generation,” and that “composters should attempt to better insulate compost vessels,” as well as keep some type of cover on top to protect from excessive rainfall and to insulate the pile. My own experience bears this out.

Humanure Handbook, 4th edition, Chapter 12, page 145. https://humanurehandbook.com/store/Humanure_Handbook.html

Joe Jenkins

Gail Jardin wrote:Welcome to permies! What suggestions can you offer for loveable lou's but with a urine divert and in an RV. What can you suggest for disposing of the wood chips if you do not own land to compost on?

The Loveable Loo is a compost toilet and requires a compost bin. There is no disposal. A urine diverting system would be for a dry toilet, not a compost toilet and not for a Loveable Loo.

Joe Jenkins

Gene Short wrote:How long do you have to wait before you can use Humanure in a garden? Is this even a good idea if you plan on eating or selling the veggies? I've heard the best way to use it is in planting a tree or bushes.

Gene

Gene,

You don't use humanure in a garden. You use it as a feedstock in making compost. You use compost in a garden. The general rule is to build a compost pile for a year, then let it sit, or age, or mature, for another year. If, after that time period, you are uneasy about using the compost in your food garden, use it somewhere else.

I have used compost made from humanure and lots of other things for 43 years, all in my food garden, and raised a healthy family on the food.

https://humanurehandbook.com/store/Humanure_Handbook.html

Joe Jenkins