Tyler Schroder

I haven’t seen this mentioned so I’ll add it. It could be a coincidence, but I noticed a big difference in the amount of mouse droppings in my garage right after I added a few big log piles in my food forests. There is no food in the garage so I figured they must just go in there to get out of the rain and wind. I rarely go into my garage so I don’t think I’ve scared them away. I didn’t patch any of the numerous entry points. Apparently they just find a pile of logs cozier than my drafty old garage.

I also have a Buddhist friend who claims that he was able to reason his mice into leaving. He simply asked them nicely to find somewhere else to live, gave them 3 days notice, and they left. Go figure.

Oof this reply was longer than I planned. But I'm glad you started this thread. I think buying rental properties is a great strategy for making money in permaculture and it is my personal strategy for generating passive income and eventually retiring early. As with any money making opportunity, it is not fool proof, otherwise every fool would be doing it. There are tons of resources online for people interested in real estate investment so I won't repeat too many here. But as you can tell from the other responses, vetting your tenants is critical.

Many permies are dead set on never taking out a loan, and I think that is reasonable. But if you study early retirement and passive income strategies, most literature will recommend the opposite. Spending other people's money is good as long as you are using it make more money for yourself. In my experience its not very difficult to break even with a rental, even early on. After all, rent is often set based in what a mortgage payment would be if you bought that house. But you have to consider the interest on a 30 year loan. If you pay the bare minimum, all of your appreciated value and more goes to the bank. But if you can swing 15 years, while paying extra, you'll be in good shape in most cities.

I'm no expert, but here are some of my personal strategies. I follow the BRRRR method (buy, renovate, rent, refinance, repeat), you'll find plenty of results of you google that.

Buy: I live near Seattle like some other responders. I will not buy within city limits, or even in King County. The rental laws are too strict and the taxes too high. The only way to make money in Seattle is to be a large rental company or a slumlord and I am neither. So look into that before you buy. I look for multi family properties with a decent yard, and as few trees as possible. I want something where I can quickly and cheaply improve both the structure (so I can raise the rent) and the land (I can't improve a mature forest). Your property should serve multiple purposes: income, maybe you live there too, a tree nursery, maybe its a good site for your farm stand, whatever makes sense for you and your area. You want something nearby that you can manage yourself and an excuse to go there often so you can keep a close eye on it and build a relationship with your renters. Also, a good inspector is worth the money, even if you are knowledgeable about what is likely wrong with your house, a detailed inspection report is a good bargaining tool when negotiating the price.

Renovate: A better term would be renter-proof. Assume that your house will be damaged, either maliciously or through regular wear and tear. Improve it accordingly within reason and with durable materials. Is that new hardwood really worth it? Probably not. Fresh paint? Probably yes. Adding square feet or improving the layout is great way to cheaply gain equity (and raise the rent). I don't aim for the highest rent possible, because that limits my renter pool. I look at the median for the area and make my house only slightly better than those. Then, being a permie, you'll probably add some raised bed for your tenants to grow veggies, maybe some expensive cultivar trees where you'll get seed stock and scion wood for your farm. Whatever you are into. That's the fun part.

Now that you've improved the house you can demand higher rent, use that rent as justification to take out a little equity, and use that cash to buy your next property. At least that's the idea.

Keep in mind, buyers don't like trees. By planting chestnuts, walnuts, and hedges on my property, I am feeding myself, my tenants, and the wildlife but I've actually lowered the value of the house. In my opinion, this won't hurt my rent price terribly and I don't ever plan to sell this property so I don't care. But if you're planning to sell this house in 10 years for the gain in equity, this becomes a lot less compatible with permaculture. You'll either have to cut all those things out before you sell (maybe for timber?) or sell at a lower price and shed a few tears when the new owner does it for you.

To address some of your other points, as far as the world ending... yeah... I tend to agree. That idea kept me from buying for years and I really regret it. I could have easily gained a few hundred thousand in equity if I just bought 3 years earlier when I first had the cash. But oh well, you live, you learn. There is a saying among stock traders, "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." So for now, I am living on the idea that even if things go bad in my lifetime, I still have time to make some money before that happens. And I've added one more permaculture property to the world in the meantime. If you've set up an LLC that pays you, you can still make money from your rental properties, then come the end times lose all those mortgaged properties to the bank and still keep your bug out farm assuming you've paid it off

In the short term, with respect to an economic crisis, we'll see. So far housing has only gone up around me. People in quarantine really started to question the value of their shoebox apartment in the city once they started working from home. On top of that, Washington has imposed a moratorium on evictions which has propped up prices as well. Also, democratic presidencies tend to bring fiscal stimulus. I am sitting on my cash for now to see if prices come down before I buy the next property, but I'm skeptical they will come down. Like I said, we'll see.

As far as the housing shortage thing, yeah, I can see why some people think it is immoral to own multiple properties. I don't personally agree. Investing is fickle that way. My 401k probably includes oil companies which I find immoral. But I am not interested in being my own fund manager, so that's the way it is for now. Isn't there some quote about principles being a luxury or something like that? Which leads to my final point.

To me, a permaculture based rental company makes a ton of sense. A trust could buy up property and ensure they are managed ethically. It could provide food right in the city, reducing carbon emissions and food miles. Permies without gobs of cash or real estate knowledge could invest in something that they know fits their ethics. Maybe they could even rent from the company and part of their rent goes towards equity in the company. It gives renters a chance to practice and learn about permaculture. Risk is spread out across multiple investors and properties so we're not all out on our own and we don't lose our butts if things go belly up. At that scale you can get better prices on labor, materials, plants. There is also more opportunity to buy up adjacent properties and design larger systems.

Its probably time I stopped day dreaming about this idea and do it myself...

This year I bought 5 gallons of raw honey from a local farmer. (Why not? It’s supposed to last forever right?). So everyone will be getting a jar of honey in their stocking. I might laser cut some little honey bee and honey comb ornaments to decorate the jars.

I’ve also been considering buying a bunch of the botanical prints from Good Nature Publishing in bulk. I would laminate them and give a few to the kids in the family each year as place mats or posters for their room. A lot of adults would probably appreciate them as well in a Goodwill frame.

I have a few patches that consistently grow 4+ leaf clovers. I pluck a few on occasion if I see some without bug damage. I thought I might set some in resin as little keychains or something for the kids.

And it’s already been mentioned but... soap. I recently learned that my aunt and I share a love of butter lambs. She would make butter lamb shaped soaps for Christmas and Easter gift. Since she recently passed, I thought I should pick up that tradition.

She left me a massive 100+ year old Christmas cactus that belonged to my great grandma. So lots of people will be getting clones from the pieces that broke off during transport.

I had a hop plant get absolutely covered in aphids last year. My solutions was to do nothing! I gave it one spritz of neem oil before I thought better of it and put the bottle away. I was moving out of that house and figured if it can’t survive in its own then there’s no use in it being there. That aphid swarm quickly gave way to a ladybug swarm. Those ladybugs quickly became food for a family of birds nesting in a nearby tree. We had fewer slugs than any of the years before, I assume because of the birds. And the one tiny area that did get spritzed with neem oil produced 1/2-1/3 the flowers that the rest of the plant did.

From what I have read (can’t confirm), the best ways to counter juglone are to greatly increase the bio activity of your soil with compost and heavy mulch, plant a barrier of juglone tolerant plants, and water more during dry periods.

I just bought a pack of common comfrey seeds. I haven’t planted them yet. I know most people get Russian comfrey or Bocking 14 but I figured it would be okay. Besides, I wanted a lot of it asap.

I’m in the rainy Puget Sound though, so I’m afraid it will grow too well. I’m curious if anyone here has experience with it? Will I be releasing a wonderful plague upon myself and neighbors if I plant this? How does it compare to say foxglove?

In my experience sheet mulching followed by diligent pulling is the best way to control blackberries. That is probably not an option on your steep slope. You don't want to be dumping loads of organic material into the stream below or climbing it. I am inclined to agree with the other replies that say not to worry about them. They are doing their job stabilizing the slope and providing bird habitat and food while they're at it. (Without blackberries, Seattle probably would have slid into the Puget Sound by now.) A long term solution would be to start inter-planting the area with more doug firs and other natives to shade the blackberries out. (This will only marginally slow them down and will take decades to actually displace the blackberries, but it I believe it would work). Another thing Ive always wanted to try is fighting bramble with bramble. Try inter-planting thornless varieties of raspberries, boysenberries, tayberries, marionberries, whatever you can find. Then you'll at least have some variety and get poked less. Finally, if the area is sunny enough I'd try a climbing vine that is able to 'float' in your sea of blackberries. The soil under your blackberries is probably too good for bindweed to grow vigorously, but maybe a clematis would.

Hello,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I just bought my first house in the burbs and am working on my food forest. The area isn't very big, about 20ft X 60ft, so its going to be a bit crowded. I've placed two sweet chestnut trees in just about the only spots they can go considering the house and the local laws. Unfortunately, there is a large arborvitae nearby that will compete with one of my young chestnuts and I don't know what to do with him.

I'm not a fan of arborvitae in general, they're kind of ugly and I don't see what value it is providing me. It adds a bit of winter nesting habitat and bird food. but there are 3 other arborvitaes and some other evergreen shrubs on the property for that. My food forest and dense edible hedge should more than make up for the loss. It adds a tiny bit of shade in an already shady corner of my PNW yard whatever that's worth. It adds no privacy or sound barrier where its at.

So my options are:
Relocate a 20ft tree.
Give it away on Craigslist.
Kill it by girdling but leave it in place as a snag for birds.
Chop and mulch it.
Hugelbed or mushroom log (I've never heard of using an arborvitae for that...)
Wood pile for mice, rabbits, frogs, spiders, etc.

Have you tried any of these with arborvitae?
Are there any options I should definitely not choose?

Thanks in advance.