Tyler Disney

One thing we talk about in EREland is that the most critical column or component of the 'levels' is the mindset, the attitude, the kind of thinking. Indicators like 'Savings Rate' or 'household expenses' are merely that: indicators. In the business world we might call them lag metrics: things that will likely approximately happen *as a result of* postconsumer thinking, or advanced frugal consumer thinking, etc. It is more effective to pay attention to 'lead metrics', which is gotten at by how do you make your decisions, how do you process information, do you think in holistic systems or in linear processes, etc.

So with permaculture, it is interesting to note what percentage of your food you grow or what your energy bill is, but that's a lag metric. With enough money, books, and land I could throw petrochemicals at some dirt until I've grown 850,000kcals, but that's not my vision for how I want to procure my food. It's much more telling if I'm able to think in patterns to details, if I understand the importance of getting a yield, if I habitually seek to close loops (waste=food), if I'm always thinking about the flows of energy and matter across the boundary of my system...

I think that what we 'see' as a permaculture project, rabbits and chickens and growies and preserved foods and all the rest, is a result of applying permaculture *thinking* consistently and iteratively.

At any rate, I think that if you can see that ERE is somewhat like applying permaculture principles to lifestyle design with a special emphasis on personal finance, then the two seemingly separate disciplines can be incorporated into a fairly seamless approach to getting after your vision. That's how I'm seeing my journey but I'm starting from 'over there'.

Hi T B, I like this thread. I just posted in your first one before seeing this one. If I may add some thoughts:

1. Frugality. A very low cost of living is magic. This is where to start. (Most permies are already really good at this I think...)
2. Broad competence. Most people think that quality of living is a function of how much money they spend, QoL=f($). But this is wrong, Quality of Life is actually at least a function of money *and skills*. QoL=f($,skills). (Most permies have lots of skills I think!)
3. If you use 1 and 2 and have access to an income stream in excess of your cost of living, then you can quickly start building up your savings.
4. No one who understands basic principles of permaculture needs to be told that it's good to have buffers of resources, including money.
5. Eventually your savings will represent something like 5+ years of living expenses. This is an interesting place to be. This is where your dependence on 'the system' becomes loosely coupled. Do you need to earn money? Sure, but not right now. If work sucks you can quit and you have *years* to figure out how to bring in income.
6. The reason a very low cost of living is magic is because the less money you need, the easier it is to get that much money. If you can earn a year's worth of living expenses in a couple months (ideally in the winter), you can spend the rest of the year developing your permaculture system. Or you could work for several years and then never have to work again.

I liked your example of building your oven, being able to wait on resources becoming available.

Hi, I've been lurking recently as I'm ramping up to begin my dive into permaculture. This thread jumped out at me because I've been heavily involved in the ERE community (I'm AxelHeyst there) since 2020.

Jacob Lund Fisker took the Wheaton Eco Scale and made one for ERE. Cat posted a link to the wiki article, but here is the full table:


There's quite a bit of discussion about the table here for anyone interested.

The forum is very active and I suspect many permies would like it. ERE is based on applying holistic systems thinking not just to one's financial life, but to one's relationship to consumer society. The 'real' aim of ERE is to become a postconsumer, a broadly competent person, who is not beholden to the dysfunctions of consumer society.

Clearly much overlap in goals and values, I think! I am here because building my ERE system has brought me the freedom and autonomy I felt I needed to be able to approach my permaculture education with a bit of breathing room. My ERE system is nearing a state of stability and maturity that it doesn't require so much attention, just a bit of maintenance and tuning here and there.

Agreed. I am having great experience with feedback from that community on a PV build of mine.

I think Will Prouse founded/owns that forum. His youtube channel is excellent.