Roger Klawinski

John C Daley wrote:Roger, what is

I LOVE IBC Code.

please?

Counties states that go by IBC - International Building Code - have less stringent restrictions on dwelling size, for one. Minimum standards for a dwelling are 150 square feet (a tiny house), to name one perk off the top of my head.

Stacy Witscher wrote:Roger - my understanding is that property taxes are a state matter, and how they are assessed varies. Our property has multiple zones, and we have multiple choices on taxation. While we have only been in Oregon for 1 1/2 years, the assessor has not been out and we would know as our property is gated and not much is visible from the road. In our county at least, code violations are only investigated if private citizens complain, other agencies don't have the right.

In California, certain behaviors trigger a new assessment. It does not happen automatically.

Western states must have it made. In this town, the assessor will generally come through in March to do their "thing".

Suppose I need to look in Oregon?

Mark Dominesey wrote:So many places, in particular the homesteading groups on FB, all state that the best place with the least restrictions is rural Missouri.  Good growing, 4 seasons, decent land, good prices.  I guess that is good enough for some folks.  The flip side of unregulated counties is that their services are usually crap, under-resourced fire departments, minimal police assistance for crime, awful roads, etc.

I would suggest places or states with a real enforceable right to farm law.  The entire state of Maryland has a great right to farm law.  Neighbors cannot do anything about the animal noise or smells, or what we do with the property as long as we follow the very easily found and very easily understood regulations.  Your house needs to comply with the IBC, but your farm and animal buildings do not.  You only need a zoning permit for ag buildings, to make sure your setbacks are correct, but no building permits are needed or issued.  and even a zoning permit is not needed until you hit 600sqft.  If you put power in, then you need an electrical permit, same with plumbing, but you can build it any way or how ever you want.  

They do want electrical permits if you install solar to your outbuildings and you need a permit for a composting toilet.  But all of that is not that harmful compared to the protections you get from jerk neighbors in how you farm or what you farm.  We had jerk neighbors on both sides who called animal control daily - who always told them that there is nothing to enforce regarding farm animals.  Luckily both jerk neighbors moved.

I hear folks recommending Maine or Vermont or Montana, while nice in practice, I am not sure a 5 month winter is a worthwhile tradeoff for some regulation.

I LOVE IBC Code.

You only need an 18 square foot bathroom and 150 square foot of living space to pass.

Alec Buchanan wrote:So... how are other permies (legally) catching their rainwater? Or (legally) using off-grid solar? Or (legally) composting humanure? Any natural builders that have gone through the trouble of permitting and regulations? Are people really waiting until they find a place with "no restrictions" before they begin their permie lives?

It seems like it'd cost a fortune for me to do things by the book. I also wouldn't be allowed to have an off-grid solar setup. Building a permittable home, with all its requirements, would be completely impossible without joining the rat race.
Am I the only person here that thinks it is just as important for people to live responsibly (earth care, people care) as it is to follow the rules? I'm not advocating for recklessness or ignorance, but I do think that waiting for laws to catch up with the permaculture world is unrealistic. I doubt permies are going to change the world by following the rulebook, and since there is so much urgency to repair and nurture the planet, shouldn't we reprioritize? I'm not worried about getting a slap on the wrist from an official if it means I get to live the life I am supposed to live. Totally worth it.  

Just saying.... I don't think I would have ever become a permie if the motto was "follow the rules".
Also, just saying... you CAN get away with permaculture - just DO IT! There are lots of ways to make it happen, and you don't need a place with no restrictions.

This is planet Earth. Can I get an amen, or am I really that radical? Anyone?

I'll give you an "Amen", with a caveat or two.

Solar power is not regulated; there is no written requirement in any county I have searched for land in that one must use a local power company (connect back to the grid). That was never a concern of mine. Composting toilets in lieu of septic are legal in several states. Water in several states can be stored in tanks and pumped back into the house.

With that said, it seems the permaculture lifestyle is becoming increasingly harder for those who want to do it right. If you are legally paying taxes on a property, you WILL be assessed annually. This requires an assessor to visit your property, or even drive by. If you catch this assessor at the wrong time, maybe having a bad day, they could easily get code enforcement out to your property if they see something they don't like (or something that questions legality). Only city, county or state owned property can be assessed by guesstimating.

I want to spread my permacultural wings and get to it. I would be peeved, however, if I bought acreage in the wrong area or unknowingly tick off county commissioners trying to simply my life.

Hence the reason for wanting as close to unrestricted use property as humanly possible.

John C Daley wrote:
Remember Tax is the price of a civilised society.

Cynicism for counties with heavy restrictions on the property they are expecting tax revenue from is my angle here.

Do I believe in paying my fair share of taxes? Absolutely. But in doing so, I should have the right to use my property within the purview of local, state and federal law without code enforcement cherry-picking every last thing I do.

Also, it was not the fact that vacant land had taxes levied; it was a mere observation that I normally see vacant lots have at or less than $150 assessed annually. $407 was just a surprise to me.

Christopher Westmore wrote:

Roger Klawinski wrote:
Costilla County is literally forcing people to comply or leave.

Worse yet is in many cases it is basically impossible to comply. They are requiring electricity miles away from the grid, it would cost tens of thousands sometimes hundreds of thousands to get it.

They are just clearing out properties.

Stacy Witscher wrote:While I agree, HOA's were definitely on my list of things to avoid. A couple of properties that I viewed had HOA's that were just road maintenance agreements/funding, nothing else. That seemed like a reasonable way to deal with maintaining a private road for multiple properties.

A major issue many people have with HOAs is the way they are structured, many times get hijacked and controlled by a couple of people. The people that gain control of the HOA can impose fines and basically run anyone out they want. HOAs easily become mini tyrant kingdoms where property “owners” have no real rights and no recourse from abuse. The idea and concept is good but the legal structure and what they usually grow into is bad.

I lived in a HOA once, Never Again..

That's why it makes sense that these land companies are selling 30-40 acres in Costilla County for $300-400 an acre with "beautiful view of mountains" as the sticking point.

Stacy Witscher wrote:While I agree, HOA's were definitely on my list of things to avoid. A couple of properties that I viewed had HOA's that were just road maintenance agreements/funding, nothing else. That seemed like a reasonable way to deal with maintaining a private road for multiple properties.

Buried within the bylaws of an HOA are stipulations on home size and other nonsensical drivel that makes having a well-maintained road seem mundane.

Another big deciding factor will be how far down one needs to drill to get good water. At $30+ a foot for just the drilling and the casing, I’d like to keep it under 150”. I seen a few places in Maine have good water at 100’.

Land with an operational septic - even with a burned down or otherwise useless structure - will get preference along with local ordinances that allow for water storage tanks or catchments.

Chris Giannini wrote:I would try Maine as a potential state. Very little restrictions as far as what you can build on the land. Vermont is the similar as far as building codes go and you do not need to purchase water rights. VT does require septic though.

I found this gem, requiring only a 150 square foot residence and 18 square foot bathroom: https://www.landwatch.com/somerset-county-maine-recreational-property-for-sale/pid/409107931

Not sure why vacant land taxes are $407 a year, but whatever, I can make double that a month in odd jobs that pay cash.

Christopher Westmore wrote:

I have also seen places crack down on it. Puna Hawaii and Costilla County, Colorado are a couple of places that attracted a lot of grass roots homesteaders then something changed and they started enforcing stuff. I have also seen small town and neighbor augments turn into code violation reports.

Yeah, let's talk about Costilla County.

I can go grab 30 acres right now for less than $600 an acre.

Problem is, stories like this are becoming commonplace where off-gridders are being forced off their own land unless they connect back to the grid.

If I purchase land and pay taxes on said land, and as long as I'm not engaged in illegal activity, I should not be visited by code enforcement because I am camping, or RVing, or staying in a small bunker while I build.

Costilla County is literally forcing people to comply or leave.

John F Dean wrote:You may want to look real close at any HOA terms. Think in terms of present and future.

My goal is definitely to avoid HOA's. I made that point because it does seem attractive to only need septic on your land while $120 a year gives you unlimited water and showers. But at the end of the day, I will avoid joining an HOA at all costs.

Solar will be my power source. I'm on the fence about water because I can create a killer irrigation system for my crops if I have a constant flow of water - which would require a well with good pressure.

I just did research on states that allow a composting system in lieu of a septic tank. As it is illegal to carry waste yourself across property lines that you do not own, and I'm really not in a position to drop $15-$20k on a septic system, I may be forced to chose a state/county where composting is welcome (and codified).