Benyamin Ghasemi

all the permaculture principles apply the same way to our body as well. just replace nature/garden with body

Michael Fundaro wrote:
The third idea to consider, maybe on a smaller scale to begin with, is creating a Microclimate by planting trees and bushes and plants and ground cover and making a small pond and creating shade, all of which will increase the humidity in that small area and slightly lower the air temperature and help hold moisture in the ground.  The idea is you start with a small area, maybe 10 feet by 10 feet, and whenever you get a chance you can add to the edges and slowly make the area larger and larger.  There are plenty of short videos on Microclimates, and plenty of websites with information to read, but I am not aware of a long movie explaining the process.  A quick search found this website, just to give you an idea, but you can find many more that may be more suitable for what you want to obtain.
https://www.gardeninginthedesert.com/microclimates/

My final suggestions are to get a soil test kit, or a few electronic gauges that can test the soil by inserting a probe into the dirt, so you know what nutrients you need to add to your soil.  Odds are you are lacking in Nitrogen and Phosphorous, and that will probably explain why your trees are struggling, and with the salty soil I am guessing your soil is Alkaline and you may need to add some sulfur to bring it to a more neutral PH level.

I know the videos above talk about wood chips and tree branches and compost, but if you don't have them available you can use hay or straw or cut grasses to create a layer of material on top of the dirt that will break down and help the soil.
Good luck.

Thanks for the tips, Micheal. I'll dive in the material soon.
I 100% agree that mulching, micro climates and shade from the plants and trees is the way to go. however I'm stuck right now because I was looking for a solution that gets  the whole farm going in one go, it might be more practical to start small as you said 10x10 feet. but at the same time I need to solve the irrigation problem for the existing trees too.
I have already done a couple of lab tests on the soil and the water. the water itself is rich with nitrates, potassium, sulfur and magnesium but no phosphorous. the soil itself lacks nitrogen and one indicator is that most weeds are nitrogen fixing weeds. To improve nitrogen I'll plant lots of legumes but for phosphorous I'm not sure what I can do other than chemical addition. Also since the water itself is rich in sulfur I don't need to add any sulfur, however I've heard lime or gypsum are great to help loosen up the heavy clay soil.

here are the water test results from lab:

   EC: 2080 us/cm
   Salt: 1.56 ppt
   Ca: 168 mg/l
   Na: 230 mg/l
   Sulfates: 116 mg/l
   Mg: 72 mg/l
   K: 4.1 mg/l
   Ba: 1.5 mg/l
   Nitrates (NO3): 2.21 mg/l
   Nitrites (NO2): 0.0049 mg/l

Crt Jakhel wrote:Hello Benjamin -- what beautiful landscape; beautiful and harsh.

Do you have access to digging machinery? It sounds like it could be a good idea to make an underground "moisture battery" in the form of a trench filled with organic matter (wood, leaves, grass, whatever - wood is important because of slower decomposition) and the either topped with soil thinly or more organics.

Our property does not have such a large number of trees and so close so I'm digging in wood individually as I plant. Ours location has a classic continental climate, so it's on the dry side, but yours seems really very dry. Therefore I can't really say oh just do this and you'll be fine - I don't have direct experience with dry conditions to that extent. But it does seem reasonable to try.

But that's just about moisture itself... I would imagine salt accumulation is the truly hard part. I don't have an answer for that apart from going with species which are known to be tolerant. Your location seems too cold for figs and carob. Maybe jujube? Mulberry could also work if the cold is only there truly in the winter and you don't get late frosts. You mentioned apricots and even almonds being grown around you and if those come through early spring in good shape, mulberries would as well.

But it also would be a shame to waste all the existing trees.

The upside of having that many trees is that you can try a number of different approaches all at the same time and with more than just 1 or 2 trees taking part in the same experiment, so you can think of it as a blessing in disguise - it should take less time to see in practice which approach works.

Thanks for the tip Crt, I need to research the moisture battery thing, but sounds like a kind of hugelkultur, there is not much organic material in the farm right now, even all the grasses and hays got grazed away by boars and rabbits and even the herd of sheep which grazed the farm while I was away, however I'm planting tones of black locusts and honey locusts and some other legumes from seed this year. based on my research they should work well here and produces tones of organic matter and wood in no time.
there are already some mulberrys in the farm, they produce well however they aren't big trees, maybe because they have hard time penetrating the heavy clay. I will definitely plant more of them. Jujubes and Russian olives are natives around here so I will plant a bunch of them too. its definitely too cold for figs and carobs but I'll try the proclaimed cold hardy figs.

Leigh Tate wrote:Benyamin, welcome to Permies! And congratulations on your property!

You really have an interesting challenge before you. I love that you have been observing, have foundational goals, and understand your challenges. Your photos are fantastic too. I have no experience with this kind of environment, but you've come to the right place to ask questions, share ideas, and brainstorm. I'll be very interested in your progress. I hope you continue to share!

Thank you Leigh, I'm glad for finding this place :)

Thanks for the great replies everyone :)

ben heidorn wrote:Hey Benjamin,  I like your name! Welcome to permies and it sounds as if you are at the beginning of a great adventure!

Sounds as if you are in zone 5 perhaps, I'm in zone 6 and can see those low temperatures but not very often.

Not sure how much 100ml translates into inches / year,  but it doesn't sound like very much.

As a relatively new member myself I don't feel comfortable giving specific advice, but I would suggest beginning with
Dr. RedHawk's Epic Soil Series

Thanks ben, this winter was exceptionally cold. otherwise I don't it goes this cold in the area here every year either :) 100ml is 3.9 inch. everyone rely on aquifers and natural springs here for agriculture (there are a plenty of them here).

so I'm waiting for your update on this how did the grafts turn out?

according to this website you should be able to propagate  figs from seed. they have cold hardy fig seeds too

https://www.exotic-seeds.store/en/home/tiger-fig-seeds-panache-fig-ficus-carica.html

Hello Dear Permies.

Some facts about the property
-Area: 4 hectares
-Altitude: 1600m from sea level
-Zone: This winter I exprience -20 celisious. so maybe zone 6
-Full sun more than 95% of year
-Yearly Rainfall/Snow 50-200ml
-Access to a shared spring water 48 hours every 12 days. the water is not salty but has a relatively high Salt + Sulfur content
-soil is Heavy clay
-the previous owners had used the property as an orchard, around 30% of the land has some 5-15 years old trees of plums, apples, pears and grapes. the rest of the trees have died for various reasons, most importantly suffocation from excess salt build up. some walnut trees also exists but they are still as big as a seedling after 15 years.
-there are two big ponds built into the property high up, for water storage. one is cement and one is plastic.
-traditionally the farmers in the area grow almonds, apples, pears, plums, apricots and walnuts. besides many farms are just monoculture wheat, corn, sugar beet and potato. however since each (group of farms rely on a different local spring water and each spring has different mineral profile I can't just copy their style and except the same results.
-own it since autumn 2020 and this is the first time I own a land for agriculture
[/list]

What I'm aiming for
Taking full advantage of the land and its properties and produce as much food and other organic material as possible for income as well as,
-Full self sufficient off-grid and organic living using,
-Permacuture Food forest (native traditional farming really.. however I want to incorporate the ideas from the modern era permaculture as well, hoping for a better result)


Challenges
Besides harsh weather the main solution I'm researching right now is the irrigation. the previous owners of the property have tried flood irrigation and dripping irrigation but they all have resigned in frustration as far as I know for the reasons bellow:
Flood irrigation causes excess salt build up in the soil, besides heavy clay causes soil erosion all the time by the moving water and requires maintenance all the time
Dripping irrigation breaks quite fast because of the sediment build up in the drippers and rodents destroying the plastic pipes all around
Minimal water infiltration due to clay soil has resulted in dwarf trees


anyone having dealt with the same scenarios who want to share some ideas?