James Hird

May Lotito wrote:Do you see improvement in the first batch of repotted seedlings after a week? If you have extra seeds, start some more in 2" or even 4" pots as backup. With warmer weather and bright sunlight,  those will catch up quickly.

Results!!!

Here's the photos 10 days after re-potting, drastic improvement for the majority of the seedlings. Only the weakest didn't make it or are still stunted.

I can't tell a difference between the compost and topsoil, compost mixes. Both have strong plants equal in size and both lost weaklings.

A couple plants do have something going on with the leaves. Not sure what that is. It's the last two photos.
The blue tray is compost, red tray compost, top soil.

May Lotito wrote:It's strange an expensive and supposedly higher quality seed starting mix would have large bits like that. Noted that the sellers of soilless potting mix are expecting customers to use the products with liquid fertilizer and watch the watering schedule closely. If you add good quality compost it will help with holding the nutrient too. Don't worry about adding too much, probably the plant will just grow faster and you need to repot again sooner. Tomatoes are forgiving and responsive when you give them what they need.

Is it a risk to start seedlings with compost in the mix? Due to soil bourn diseases I guess? It was my gut instinct to use compost but from my research online I was put off.
I make my own compost out of all sorts. I've got different piles. One of lots of food scraps (no meat or cooked food), egg shells, coffee grounds, old straw mulch etc.
One leaf mulch, wood chips pile
A well composted cow manure pile
Annnd a new about 8 ton pile of cow manure mixed with lots of straw!!! This needs to sit a while
What I'm lacking is top soil. I live on very rocky ground.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi James,
You had some issues with your seedlings, got some ideas from here, acted on them, took pictures, and then came back and reported your success. So often we on Permies will offer advice and suggestions without any closure to whether they tried it or whether they were successful. So you just made my day :)

The shriveled stem sounds like damping off. Often from too much water and/or not enough air flow. That happened to me one year on two flats of tomato seedlings. I did exactly what you did. I re-potted them deeper. It took a little while for them to get settled in, but once they did, they were fine, and I went on to get a bumper crop of tomatoes that year. Keep in mind that while tomatoes can be somewhat picky, they can also be very forgiving because you can bury them deeper and they grow fast :)

Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate the knowledge I get from permies, I wish I could share more of what I'm doing. Life is very busy though. I'll see this case study through to the end though.
These photos are a good example of quite a few of the seedlings.
It's not the only problem I had though, I think there were a few things going on.
I've got results with the seedlings I potted up. I'm going to wait until a week to take photos and share.

May Lotito wrote:Hi James, I think you are on the right track and some of the seedlings are already showing improvement after repotting.

The so called seedling starting mix is mostly for covering seeds which are sown in regular potting mix. It has very little nutrients and watering quickly washes them away. The purple coloring in the stems and back sides of the leaves are normal for tomatoes but stunted growth means the seedlings didn't get enough nutrients, not just phosphorus.

Given the small size if the original cell, nutrients should infiltrate readily to the roots after repotting. But if you have some seedlings to spare and want to experiment switching out potting medium completely, you could gently dislodge the old potting mix off the root. Take the chance to observe the root development as well. Then fill a pot half way with new mix, tilt it side way and make a slope of the mix. Lay bare roots on the surface and fill in the other half. Set the pot upright and water to settle the potting mix. Fill up more if necessary. In this way, root damaging is minimum and you get to see how the potting media affects growth more clearly.

Do you think that would speed up recovery? I'll give it a go and compare to the ones I've already potted up. I've still got a couple of trays to pot up and I'm all for experimenting.
I was trying to disturb the roots as little as possible.
Some seedlings came out of their cells with all soil intact, holding the shape of the cell. I'm assuming the roots on these seedlings were well developed. Some seeding came out with very little soil and I felt slight tearing when I carefully removed them. I'm assuming these roots weren't doing so well.
It was mostly the weaker looking seedlings that did this.
Maybe I misused the seedling soil mix. It didn't even seem fit for the purpose you described ether though. There were quite large sticks and bark chunks in it. I didn't get the cheap stuff so I was unpleasantly surprised. Definitely happier with my own mix.
I do have a question about that though.
I was doing one block of coconut coir, 2 cups perlite, 2 cups vermiculite and a handful of organic worm casting.
It works well but I was considering putting 2 handfuls of worm castings to help the seedlings with nutrients after their true leaves come in.
I intend to pot them up as soon as possible, after 2 developed true leaves come in.
Would I make the mix too rich by adding the second handful? Would it just be wasteful as the plants only really need nutrients after their true leaves come in?

Heres the fun part. I'm experimenting with my potting mix.
I've divided the seedlings up as evenly as possible into two groups.
One group got potted up into 1:1 good quality homemade compost, coconut coir. With perlite and vermiculite added to get the consistency right
The other group got 1:1:1 the same compost, coir, top soil with perlite and vermiculite.
I know there is a chance of introducing dieses with the topsoil but there could also be benefits.
The plants final home will be in 10gal grow bags with a mix of the topsoil and compost and probably some other organic matter. My topsoil is really sandy but it's all I've got. It needs organic matter to hold the water in it and stop it from caking so much.
My theory is that by potting up with some of the topsoil I'll be getting the plants used to there final homes conditions faster and also maybe adding minerals the plants can't get from compost alone.
I will keep this post updated with photos.
Let's see what happens 🙂

To save them I've repotted them in 4" pots.
I've buried them as deep as I can so they can grow new roots from the stem hairs. This should also give them some extra support.
All information I have found recommends reporting after they have at least 2 true leaves. Most of mine only have 1, some have 2 but they are very small.
I thought I'd risk it, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Upon repotting I noticed quite a few of the stems were pale and shriveled at soil level. This reenforces my belief that they were over watered.
Something else to note, I repotted them a few days after I took the first pictures and although they still don't look great by any means they looked a little more healthy. New leaves were green and I haven't lost any more since loosing a few when I first moved them out into real sun.

In the photos you can see examples of purpling leaves and stems, browning leaves and 'leggy' seedlings . An all round sorry mess.
Why did this happen? I jumped on google 'purple tomato seedling leaves' everything pointed to nutrient deficiency. Not enough phosphorus.
How can you fertilize such small seedling, why are they deficient?
It wasn't until I posted on this forum that I was informed that purple leaves doesn't just mean nutrient deficient. It could be a whole host of things. Their too cold, over watering and under watering seemed to be the most common suggested causes.
The purpling of leaves is just a stress response.
This made me rethink my diagnosis, maybe there was something else going on.
I remember that I had introduced fans to the seedling a few weeks into sowing them. This change in conditions caused me to dry out my seedlings one time, I lost a few to this.
What I think happened is that I over compensated with the watering and gave them too much.
In my panic I moved the seedling out into my newly constructed cold frame. The weather was heating up and I'd had good success with other seedling in it. Some had already  out grown the tomato's.
I think the shock of been moved out into almost full sun too quickly also had a part to play in the sorry looking seed tray.

Any how, another gardening lesson learnt.

I've had these seedlings under lights and on heat mats for 4 week. I was surprised how slow they were growing and then they took a turn for the worse.
I' mtrying to get to the bottom of my problem and untimely save as many of them as I can.
As you can see in the photos below they are looking pretty sorry for themselves.
I reached out to this forum and have had great help in understanding what was going on and what could be the probable causes.

Jay Angler wrote:

James Hird wrote:I heat my house over winter with a log burning stove so I mix all that ash in with my compost. I know it's not as good as bio-char but there are some chunks of charcoal in it. Good for potassium too.

Depending on how wet your compost gets, this could be part of your problem. Tomatoes like acidic soil, and ash pushes things basic. I added a bit too much ash one year, and my tomato starts were truly unhappy. When I mixed new soil with only the tinyest bit of ash, tomato plants were happy. Can you test the acidity of your soil?

and wrote:

Do you think seedlings with only one small true leaf are too small to pot up?

If they're looking unhappy, and not growing well, I'd take the chance if it were me. Just be as gentle with them as you can be!

I've got litmus paper, I'll test my compost and soil.
It was store bought organic seedling mix they were planted in though. I'm not happy with it, it wasn't cheap and I noticed a improvement in other seedlings when I started making my own.
I repotted most of them last night. I'm pretty sure it was over watering that did it. I noticed the stems at soil level was pale colored and shriveled on quite a few of them. Some wern't able to hold there own weight.
When I repotted I buried them as deep as I could so they can grow new roots from the stem hairs and to support them a little.
I'm going to make a post about it now.
Thanks for all your help and info

Jay Angler wrote:

James Hird wrote: I might do a couple different mixes and see if there is much difference.

That's the spirit! Please take before and after pictures. Since some of the seedlings seem to be struggling more than others, I would try both the stronger and the weaker ones in different recipes and see what happens.

That said, I don't like to see babies die... so crushing up some bones from your dinners or from the neighbour's dinners, seems like a good idea for some extra phosphorus. However, an easier source which I use is dried, crushed egg shells. I put a spoonful in the bottom of my pots and let the microorganisms spread the goodness where needed.

If you're on sandy soil, I have read that biochar can be a big help, as it helps to hold onto nutrients.

Do you think seedlings with only one small true leaf are too small to pot up? I know it's not recommend but in this case I'm thinking of risking it. I potted up 5 or 6 a few days ago as a test and they are all doing much better in their new pots. I did only pot up seedling with 2 true leaves though