T. Freeze

Chard Irking wrote:I too am interested in this question. Also, what do folks do with all the water being used? Do you just let it drain on the ground? Seems like it would make a muddy mess quickly. Is it safe to use for irrigating a garden?

   Feathers, bone and blood are all good for the garden soil. However, they do run some risk of carrying pathogens, so dumping on compost or dumping it on a “resting” garden area, might be a safer idea. Definitely don’t get it on leafy greens.
 I am thinking about trying to build a screened recycling tank to the used water.  But before I go to all that trouble, I would like to have some idea how much water I would be using. If it’s 5 gallons, might not be worth the trouble of collecting. If it is 100 gallons, different story

We are 100% off grid.  We collect rain water and occasionally have to haul water in.  We just finished raising our first round of meat birds and feel that it was a worthwhile venture.  We already ordered our second flock and are looking to streamline the processing…process.  
  Can anyone give any insight into how much water a plucker uses? We are in the high desert and water is like gold to us.  We run a two person team when processing. It seems like a plucker would stand in as the perfect third person and speed the process up a good bit.
  Any insight is appreciated.

I do have some fear of mold growing in the cooling pipes.  My thoughts were to use some kind of solid, smooth sided pipe, such as wastewater pvc, and to have it at an intentional slope.   In my pea brain, the slope would cause any condensed water to run to a controlled point, possibly allowing re use in the system. At the same time, I am sure that that moisture with have to attract molds.
    When I was a kid, I had a 100% enclosed terrarium. It grew plants very well.  It required little input from me. Never needed any extra water.  Somehow, there has to be a way to achieve that in a greenhouse!??
    I am in Central Texas, right now.  My observation is that any outdoors temps over about 70 degrees mixed with bright sun, will quickly get too hot for plants. So I have to open the greenhouse and vent the air.  That is fine here, as we have a surplus of rain and the humidity is usually super high.   I would imagine that in the desert, venting a hot greenhouse has to be equivalent to putting your plants in a dehydrator.  All that moisture would leave quickly.  
     I intend to control the afternoon sun with greenhouse positioning, tree cover and shade cloth.  Long term, I hope to use some climbing vine as well.  
     Somehow there has to be a way to do this. I admit my idea goes against what nature is doing out there. Maybe that needs to be the end of the thought process, but even the concept of “Greening the Desert” go against the fundamentals of “desert”.  So for now I will keep dreaming and scheming.


   

I honestly don’t know and I never thought of that.  There are some large cattle ranches out there.  I would not be surprised if it had been used for grazing.  Now the only thing grazing is elk, deer, rabbits, ground squirrels and pack rats.  It is in the middle of nowhere, 90 miles to the nearest Walmart. 3 miles from the continental divide.

Skyler Weber wrote:T. Freeze, if your valley isn't growing anything, that means there is a severe problem with erosion and the velocity of water. Areas that get high runoff can ironically end up dryer, due to the water stripping off the soil, removing vegetation and cutting into the ground thus exposing more surface area to evaporation. And, that is exactly why you need swales to stop the erosion. I know it feels like plowing, but keep in mind that you only do it once and then never again. You replant the area as soon as you cut it. It's like surgery to fix a tumor. Yes it's stressful but necessary. If there are trees in the way then use a large (like huge) metal tooth rake to make small little berms of stones and sticks. This way you don't cut roots and can still slow the water. Those giant rocks would make perfect contour dams above ground without breaking ground.

  I do question what is going on with that low spot.  It does have native grasses growing in it.  There are a few older,large trees.  Most of the property is fairly thick with trees.  I did dig a couple holes in that valley area to see what kind of soil was down there.  Compared to my soil here in Central Texas, it looked great.  Not real dark , but soft, easy to get a shovel into.  I would say it has some organic matter in it.  The looser top soil was about 8” thick with about 16” of clay underneath it.  After the clay there is a layer of crumbly caliche.  I had wondered if there might be a salinity problem because it is lower? That probably doesn’t make sense either, as it obviously would get a good amount of water run through it.  It isn’t a barren valley, it is a grassland area. Why it has so few trees is the mystery.  
Thanks!

That sounds like a good start and at least some affirmation in some of the plants that I have been considering.        
I believe that the shape of my property will lend itself to swales on contour. The hope is that I can start with one smallish swale and be able to nurse the pioneer trees along.   I do already have an abundance of Pinion and Juniper trees.  Maybe I need to look at trying to design swale with the existing trees built in.  It might make more sense than trying to start pioneer trees.  As wonderful as the idea is to do swales on contour, there is the thought in the back of my mind that reminds me of farmers plowing the land to grow crops.  It isn’t natural but obviously it is a step in rehabilitation of uninhabited land.   My land is fairly well forested, except for the valley where I would like to do swales.  That valley has me puzzled. There are few trees in it, it is sparse grass and cacti.  Looking at it you would almost expect that it gets too much water flowing through it, sort of like a barren gulley. That being said, there is zero sign of any visible erosion.  And that takes me back to the idea of swales and using the natural lay of the land for harvesting rainwater in swales.  Guess time will tell!
Thanks for the information!

You are probably correct about the late summer exploration.  We just purchased the property in December and have spent a week camping out there.  It doesn’t seem as though there are a broad range of plants out there, but there again, it was December and January.  By then I am sure that the animal population has gnawed down most of the really good stuff.  Seemed like there was some sparse grass, very little cactus, pinion pines and juniper.  We are going out to build phase one of our house in August, so maybe the monsoons will have started greening things up a bit.  
    I haven’t seen the monsoon rains yet.  I am curious to see how much water flows through the property in a good rain.  Living in central Texas, i am used to large amounts of rain in a very short time, then it stops and the ground is dry and cracking in 2 weeks.  My area in Texas was cotton farmed to oblivion.  I have been working on rehabilitating the property, but the population boom here is crazy.  I have a highway in my backyard, soon an overpass as well.  Got to get away!
    Thanks for the link.  I tried to open it on my phone and didn’t see any filter options available, to be able to select drought or cold resistant.  I will try again later in my laptop, maybe their mobile version doesn’t have those filters available.   It looks like the honey locust tree is a common theme throughout this and other forums and videos. Beyond that, it is hard to tell what will stand the cold extremes and the arid climate.
     I am afraid that I am not the Freeze that you are referring to.  My people are all from Michigan and Indiana.
Thanks for the reply and information!

In the next year or so, we are going to be moving to the high desert in New Mexico.  The elevation is about 7,600 ft.  10 inches of rain a year, may be conservative.  I does get cold there, lots of nights below freezing. Even now as we end April, the thermometer is occasionally dropping below freezing.
    I intend to build a 20x30 greenhouse for immediate food production.  It will be built up against a hill and also dug into the ground. I am also putting in passive geothermal heating pipes.  I have heard a lot about using geothermal for heating.  Has anyone tried it for cooling during the summer? I am hoping that with the underground geothermal, that I will be able to keep the temps low enough during the summer, that I won’t have to vent my greenhouse to the low humidity outside air.  I am in essence hoping that I can use the greenhouse to conserve water in an extremely arid environment.
     It would also be nice if the Geothermal cooling would work well enough to actually condense some of the evaporation to be added back to the soil. It may be a pipe dream. As I understand it, the plans for geothermal heating/cooling call for perforated pipe to be run underground because of condensation. How great would it be to use solid wall pipe and have it soloed back to a “well” of sorts, to gather the condensed water?  Could it keep the humidity and heat low enough for plant health in the summer?
    Anyone have any input on this?  I know that greenhouses aren’t exactly permaculture, but sustainability runs through permaculture and I am trying to design a sustainable greenhouse.  I have no practical experience with a greenhouse in such an arid place. We are planing to harvest rainwater for our needs and our food production.  All of my greenhouses have been in Texas where it is it is entirely too hot to grow in one after February.
   

Hello to all.  I am new to the forum.  I am a long time time fan of sustainable living and permaculture falls right in there. I just bought 15 acres in central western New Mexico.  I believe that it will be zone 5b. The winter lows are -10 to -15 degrees, with lots of nights below freezing. Rainfall is estimated between 10 and 13 inches a year, most of which comes from monsoon rains.  The property has great potential for swales.  I am curious about what kind of pioneer trees and understory might survive the cold and drought.
   I have been milling around in the permaculture world for a while and see quite a bit of good info for the dry climates, but when I research different species I always seem to get shut down by the cold hardiness of plants. We have pinions and junipers, but I am looking for some fast growing “ chop and drop” growth.  
  Has anyone run across a good reference where this kind of climate specific info can be found?  
   It is beautiful there and I am excited to get started on this journey. I know that permaculture isn’t a fast process and want to get it started.