Alex Vivaldi

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since Aug 13, 2025
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Currently a professional data scientist and an amateur plant breeder, expecting to switch those two around over the next few years.
I am in eastern NC with a humid subtropical climate straddling the line between USDA zone 8a and 8b. We are 26 feet above sea level and get between 50 and 60 inches of rain annually. The growing season is between 220 and 280 days, summer highs peak in the upper 90s F in wet years or in the low 100s F in dry years, and the annual low is between -1 F and 24 F averaging right around 15 F.
My primary breeding focus is on cold-hardy citrus and on heat-tolerant raspberries, and to a lesser extent on improved hardy passion fruits. My goals are for sweet, desert-quality mandarin and orange like citrus hardy to zone 8a or 7b, sour, lemon and lime like citrus hardy to zone 7a, for erect, large and sweet raspberries that thrive in humid zone 8 or 9, and fragrant, large-flowered passion fruit with high fruit set, high sugar-to-acid ratios, and good fruit quality hardy to zone 7b or colder.
In the near future I will be working on pawpaws, which I plan on recreating the natural hybrid Asimina x piedmontana using improved cultivars as parents, the goal being pawpaws that are substantially easier to grow and less fussy about conditions.
I use a variety of breeding tools and techniques, including most everything from open pollination and random/natural selection to controlled crosses, backcrossing, intergeneric hybridization and chromosome manipulation. I am not a permie, but I am low-spray and I share some goals with permies though my methods (sometimes goals, and often times priorities) differ.
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Recent posts by Alex Vivaldi

Those fruit are still quite immature, so hard to say just yet. They'll probably swell up a bit and only color change right before ripening.

Of the common ones, strawberry guava sounds pretty likely. The leaves look a bit wide for lemon guava (a subspecies or variety of strawberry guava) and they don't have the deep venation that a lot of the more tropical guavas usually have. Probably have to wait and see what color the fruit turn.
1 week ago
The title doesn't say which region or climate we're talking about, and "hot and humid weather" mean very different things in Albion and Alabama. Since the OP is in zone 8 or 9 in the South, I think it's best to use that context.

And unfortunately, it's slim pickings. Traditional vegetable varieties were mostly bred in Europe or in the northeastern and midwestern US, or more recently on the west coast. None of those places have climates like the South. And even the wild species that most fruits and vegetables were bred from are almost all either from cool temperate regions, Mediterranean regions, or in the case of New World plants, alpine areas of the tropics. There are of course south and southeast Asian plants, but those are typically fully tropical. Aside from a fairly small region of China, almost nowhere on earth has the climate of the South, with long, hot and humid summers but also comparatively cold winters that get substantially below freezing on occasion.

As a result, not only are there not many varieties bred for these climate conditions, few plants adapted to such a climate have even been domesticated in the first place. Additionally, there's not much can be done culturally to make things work. Southern California is too dry for most traditional fruits and vegetables, but that's easy enough to fix, just irrigate. Alaska has a really short season, but there are a lot of varieties that mature and ripen early. In the South, the issues are the heat and humidity in the summer, and the subsequent disease and pest pressure, and the cold in the winter. There's no easy fix for those things.

To an extent, you can mitigate things by finding the most pest and disease resistant varieties and trialing them. Millennial Gardner on YouTube has done a good job of finding some good ones, and also busting the ones that are claimed to be but fail when put to the test.

To an extent, you can also pull from more tropical agricultural traditions, especially for annuals. Roselle is too long season, but sweet potatoes work great, for example. Occasionally, there are even plants that have a decent amount of breeding and selection already done so there's varieties adapted to the region, like the aforementioned sweet potatoes. Zone-pushing is often particularly effective in the South given the tropical-like conditions in summer, and the cold spells in winter, while severe, are short, so protecting and actively heating citrus for example is eminently doable.

So:

For tomatoes, cucumbers, squash, and some other common vegetables, see Millennial Gardener's recommendations or those of other people who have been fairly rigorous in their selection and trialing.

For greens, you might be able to use sweet potatoes if the flea beetles aren't too bad in your garden.  Ditto for amaranth, though for them there are a handful of other insects that are likely to cause issues. Madagascar spinach though is almost bulletproof outside of some grasshopper damage.

For beans, focus on either traditional southern varieties like cowpeas/black eyed peas, or on Indian and Chinese varieties, though be mindful that some Chinese varieties are from northern China or from tropical China and might not work, and a lot of Indian varieties are actually from semi-arid regions or dry-summer regions and might not actually be that pest resistant.

For carrots, beets, turnips, and the like, give up. Ditto for potatoes for most parts of the South. It makes far more sense to grow sweet potatoes, hardy taro species, perhaps jicama if your season is long enough.

For herbs, it's mostly fine as far as perennial varieties go. Annuals other than basil will almost all bolt far too quickly to be worthwhile. For some, like dill, you can find more heat-adapted substitutes like fennel, though expect to lose the whole crop some years to caterpillars.

Also:

Give up! Well, sort of. Learn to grow in the shoulder seasons. Late summer and early fall tend to be much less humid, and therefore generally have much lower pest and disease pressure, and the spring warms up very quickly most years, so if you've given some plants a head-start you can get them to harvest before the summer really sets in. Also, learn to use plastic in winter and shade cloth in summer. Winters are mild most of the time with just short cold spells, usually with clear skies--which means growing under plastic through almost the whole winter is perfectly viable and likely to be completely pest-free. Plants that can take a light frost are the best candidates. And don't be afraid to plant your early spring plants in the fall and pray they survive the winter. If we get a mild winter, it's totally possible they will, and then come March rather than waiting for your peas to sprout and grow, you'll already have three foot tall plants. Maybe they don't make it and you lose $0.30 of pea seeds. Oh well, plant some more at the normal planting time.

Similarly, you can "plant" out tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and such plants in pots and grow bags surprisingly early, especially if the containers they're in are black and sitting in full sun. Just watch out for some late frosts, but otherwise, you should be able to have a super early crop of summer plants going, and once the soil warms up, you can plant out your regular small transplants, and you can plant out your give one gallon plants that are about to start fruiting. You'd be surprised how little blossom end rot you get in May while the weather still feels like a New England summer.
2 weeks ago

Joop Corbin - swomp wrote:

the charcoal is supposed to retain more humid and micro-organisms. but, and than im lost, is so good in doing this that is increases without human intervention and using this soil means you never have too manure anymore....

What does that mean? without mulching?

...

And i can understand that charcoal in the soil keeps nutrients longer without leaching, and water i presume. I can get that terra preta will enable you to grow for much longer, and would make your (soil)system more efficient.



Hi, I can provide some explanation of the chemistry involved in charcoal as a soil amendment and the differences between temperate vs subtropical vs tropical soils which should shed some light on terra preta.



Plant matter is generally mostly water by weight and, under a microscope, has a complex structure of various cell types arraigned into layers and those layers arraigned in different shapes and patters depending on the plant source, be it grass, herbaceous perennial, palm, bamboo, or woody plant. Density is highly ununiform and there are a lot of different microscopic and macroscopic structures. Once pyrolysis occurs, the water is mostly evacuated and the former cell walls and structural components make up the bulk of the remaining weight, along with small amounts of trapped ashes and tar like residues. In addition to the pre-existing venation, porosity, an cavities in the plant matter, pyrolysis leads to extensive crack propagation as steam produced inside the drying and hardening plant tissues causes ruptures, as well as the shrinkage from the drying itself causing buckling and checking.

The end result is a material that has a very complex structure with a variety of porosities ranging from microscopic to macroscopic.

Chemically, the material is roughly speaking an amorphous carbon species with substantial impurities. Incomplete dehydration, dehydrogenation, cracking, and similar reaction processes mean that rather than sheets of pure carbon like in graphene, there are a whole bunch of different residual organic (in the chemical sense) molecules. In areas of more complete reaction processes leave behind graphitic masses, vitreous carbon, and even fullerenes sometimes. To some degree there is also some carbon black and soot content. The degree of pyrolysis and the temperatures and durations involved will lead to a variety of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (PAH) levels, and similarly a variety of carbonyl, carboxyl, and other functional group levels. All of these aromatic hydrocarbons and functional groups provide bonding sites and increase the ion exchange capacity (mostly CEC, but also AEC).

Typically, the charcoal is then broken up into large particles somewhere between coarse sand and pea gravel in size. At least when people are making "biochar" anyway.

What you're left with at the end of all that are these particles that with low weatherability and degradability that are highly porous with excellent internal and external drainage and a fairly high CEC.



Now let's talk about soils.

The formation, composition and behavior of soil is highly climate dependent. To the point where, basic "common sense" notions that are true in one region are false in others. As a great example of that, and as an intro for why charcoal can be useful, we can talk about soil organic matter.

As plant and animal detritus break down in the soil, the easily destroyed materials are quickly used up, leaving behind whatever materials are more difficult to break down. This is typically lignins, oils, and waxes, and some amount of highly complex carbohydrate structures. After some time, these structures tend to form what is loosely called "humic substances." This is an absurdly broad category of chemicals which can generally be said to be the soil organic matter component that is to some extent resistant to microbial activity. In soil science, they are broken down into three rough categories depending on molecular weight and solubility in alkalis and acids, fulvic acid, humic acid, and humin. It's very important to note that these three are not individual chemicals or made of specific molecules, they are just broad categories for describing residual organic matter in soil. You basically have these big, high molecular weight complexes of phenolic rings, quinones, polysaccharides and long-chain carbohydrates, etc. all stuck together. Typically, in heavy soils these macromolecules will form colloids with the clay particles, where the outsides of lumps of humic subtances will have clay particles stuck to them, whereas in lighter soils they will be adhered to the sandy particles. Imagine pouring tar into a container of flour or a container of tennis balls if you will to get an idea of the difference there.

These humic substances also tend to have lots of aromatic rings, different functional groups, and in general lots of bonding sites, so they have a high CEC. They also can both physically hold or trap water and can undergo hydration and dehydration reactions and so chemically hold or release water. The "sticky" effect described before also tends to increase the porosity of the soil's mineral content to some degree. Finally, they are described as resistant to microbial decay, but just resistant. Granted, dead microbes can also contribute to soil organic matter to an extend, partially closing the cycle, but not entirely. Over time, soil organic matter is converted to CO2, which diffuses out of the soil and blows away in the wind. Some amount is also lost via leaching as water soluble low-molecular weight compounds dissolve into water and are washed away. Absent new depositions of animal and especially plant matter, the soil organic matter will eventually all, or nearly all, dissipate into the atmosphere. If you place a container of dark garden soil somewhere it will have some water percolating through it but remains oxygenated, and most importantly stays warm and moist, and you prevent any plants or algae from growing in it, that nice dark garden soil will over a few months or years degrade into just plain mineral soil with almost no organic matter.

If the container is warm and wet enough, the breakdown of soil organic matter will actually occur fast enough that new plant and animal matter will struggle to replace it, with new matter getting mostly broken down quickly. Since higher organic matter levels means more microbial activity, the equilibrium point isn't 0% but something a little above that, as microbial activity dramatically slows down once you get to very low soil organic matter levels.

If you do the same experiment but increase the temperature and water flow, ideally under somewhat acidic conditions, even a lot of the mineral content will leach out and you'll be left with just aluminum silicates, iron oxides, and a few other highly resistant, highly oxidized minerals. And that's basically how you get Oxisols (wet tropical soils) and, in less extreme cases, Ultisols (southern red clay).

Now let's put that all together. For soils that are fairly dry and generally cold, but that support, for example, highly productive grasslands that quickly produce new organic matter and quickly deposit it in the soil, the equilibrium point for the soil organic matter will be very high, maybe as high as 15%. That's how you get Chernozem. Eastern Ukraine and southern Russia are almost semi-arid, and are bitterly cold with fairly short summers where the soil takes a long time to warm up, especially given the weaker sunlight at those high latitudes. It's basically the perfect conditions for maximizing plant matter deposition and minimizing soil organic matter loss. The warmer and wetter the soil, and the shorter the winter and faster the soil heats up, the lower the soil organic matter equilibrium point will be. In the wet tropics, that equilibrium point is barely above zero, in the wet subtropics like the US South, it's oftentimes only 1-2%. In cold temperate regions, it can be higher, perhaps up to 5% or more. Soil texture plays are role as well, since clay colloids can protect the soil organic matter longer term compared to the humic substances adheared to sandy particles that are completely exposed to microbes, water, and oxygen.

This of course dramatically alters the effectiveness of artificially raising the soil organic matter content (e.g. adding compost or mulch). In traditional New England gardens, which are moist but cold, or in classic West Coast gardening areas like southern California and the inland PNW and Mountain West, which are summer-dry and have relatively long, cool winters compared to similar USDA zoned areas in the rest of the country, artificially raising the soil organic matter content is highly effective at increasing fertility, since the natural equilibrium point is fairly high and the breakdown rate is quite low so even if you push the soil well above the normal equilibrium point, it will take a very long time for it to adjust back down to more natural levels. In contrast, someone gardening in Florida could theoretically have all artificially added soil organic matter decomposed and leached/blown away in the wind within a single growing season. Having grown up on an organic farm in eastern NC with sandy soils, as a teenager I never understood why we could apply compost and goat and chicken and cow manure to the garden over and over and over for more than a decade and mulched everything as thick as we could and still the soil was just this deep sand that retained its pale, infertile color and never developed that dark color and earthy smell we were promised by all the gardening books (written by folks in Maine, Idaho, or the UK...).

Now I know. All that organic matter was just blowing away in the wind a few weeks to months after we added it.



There are a few other equilibria that need mentioning.

People often talk about microbes being supported by soil organic matter and how as they consume that organic matter they release nutrients for plants to take up. This is technically true, but it misses the main part of it. Far and away the most important thing organic matter does, once it reaches the more decomposed stage, is it provides a medium for growth and nutrient holding and a buffer for moisture. The lumps and sticky masses and films of organic matter are in a lot of cases just providing surface area for microbes to live on as well. It is also being broken down and consumed by some soil microbes, yes, but the vast majority of soil microbes are simply living on and in it, not consuming it. Indeed, the vast, vast majority of soil microbes can't even eat organic matter anyway. Instead, those microbes are doing whatever it is their kind do, be it reducing sulfur, oxidizing sulfur, solubilizing phosphate, absorbing soluble phosphate and making it insoluble, reducing nitrites to nitrates, reducing nitrates to ammonia, converting ammonia into nitrates and nitrites, denitrifying nitrates into nitrogen gas, fixing nitrogen gas into nitrates, turning living potatoes into mushy dead potatoes, fermenting alcohols and lactic acid, etc. Notice how most of these chemical activities are cyclical? (Also, notice that the soil itself fixes nitrogen? Yeah, it's not only legumes, and the dozens of non-legumes nitrogen fixing genres of plants that for some reason never get any love, just regular dirt will fix nitrogen all by itself, it's just that the equilibrium point might not be as high as if there are plants pumping sugars down to feed microbes doing the fixing, but regardless, soil, unless completely sterile, will never actually run out of nitrogen--though it can get pretty darn low). Depending on the species and the conditions, the soil microbes will be running these reactions one way or the other, or in reality both ways, with some equilibrium point depending on conditions. And plants are part of those cycles, because they're doing things like uptaking soluble ions, secreting sugars, dying, releasing highly digestible forms of organic matter, etc. Most plant roots, for example, are primarily made up of cellulose, and cellulose degrades in the soil due to the activity of certain microbes that enzymatically break it down into disaccharide and further down into just simple sugars. Which means that little or even no humic substances might result from a plant root dying and being consumed, for example. But that process will still cycle some carbon, and more importantly cycles sugars into the soil as well as organic forms of mineral nutrients, which will eventually get consumed and turned into inorganic forms, which plants then pick back up. And the humic substances, because of how well they moderate water and how well they chemically bind ions, as well as provide pH buffering and such, really help keep conditions favorable for microbial activity and provides a reserve so to speak of chemicals in the soil that's constantly getting added to and removed from.

So a phosphorous ion might get chelated by some phenols and just hand out in the soil for a while, then gets picked up by some bacteria that uses it in a cellular process but then gets eaten by something else that gets eaten by a fungus which passes it over eventually to a plant that uses it in a leaf that gets eaten by a bug that dies and gets eaten by ants and ends up in an ant that gets killed by a fungus which eventually decomposes and passes to a bacterium that secretes it as part of a biofilm in the soil where it adheres to a grain of sand for a few more months before another bacteria comes along and breaks down the organic compound that it was part of and then releases the phosphorous ion as a salt again which begins leaching during a rain storm but then binds to some organic matter in the soil for a while until the soil temperatures change which alters the pH and releases the ion which gets taken up by a plant root directly and... etc. Sure, there are also some phosphorous molecules bound up deep in a tar-like lump of humin stuck to some clay, but that phosphorous doesn't enter the cycle until that humin gets oxidized and broken down, which might be months or even a few years later, or never in a bog with no oxygen. Most of the nutrient, energy, and water cycling that's happening in the soil is taking place in conditions provided by degraded soil organic matter, but it's not from the final decomposition of degraded soil organic matter. Perhaps think of a very tall glass of water. You can scoop a spoon of water off the top and into another cup, put the water back, and repeat over and over. Eventually, the water at the bottom of the glass will also get mixed up and ends up at the top of the glass where it gets scooped up, but it'll take a very long time. It's the water at the top of the glass that's doing the most cycling.

But of course there's also an extent to which stuff degrading in the soil doesn't just get consumed and does form more resistant chemicals. Stuff with more lignins and waxes and whatnot ends up in the soil and a lot of that ends up contributing to the more long lasting forms of soil organic matter. But just as that stuff is being deposited, mostly by plants and animals, some microbes, and just free oxygen, is steadily breaking it down and turning it, ultimately, into CO2 that just floats away same as the sugars from the faster cycles that get metabolized into CO2 and diffuses off into the atmosphere. The first process depends mostly on the primary productivity of the plant life on top of the soil, and how quickly it's getting cycled into the soil (hence why grass is such a big deal), but the second process is mostly just a function of how much soil organic matter there is, how warm the soil is, and how moist but still oxygenated the soil is. So, to bring back the comparison mentioned above, cold temperate grasslands have great primary productivity, at least in summer, and put out a lot of organic matter that ends up on or in the soil that same year or even just a few weeks later, but the soil is either frozen or cold most of the year, and once it does finally warm up, is generally also at its driest since most temperate grassland regions of the world have relatively dry late summers. Hence the black dirt of the American and European prairies. Reverse that, and make the soil warm and moist almost all year, and it won't matter how fast the plants are growing, the soil microbes will be destroying most of the soil organic matter as fast as it arrives.

But then, with very low levels of soil organic matter, an issue arises. Soil particles, the mineral component anyway, are chemically pretty inert, and they tend to have low porosity and so don't hold air or water inside, just in the spaces between the particles, and they don't provide much pH buffering, hydrate buffering, salt buffering, etc. Clay particles and more weatherable minerals tend to be better, but they're still not amazing at these things. Sand particles tend to be pretty bad at it, and also just don't have much surface area for anything to happen on. And if the soil is extremely weathered and it's just some extremely chemically stable minerals left, then the soil is going to be almost inert. When that happens, leaching becomes a major drain on the system, and so many of the nutrient and energy cycles described above end up with low equilibrium points. Additionally, the soil itself will cycle much faster between too wet without enough air, to too dry, the pH can swing more rapidly or slide to more harsh extremes, and in general conditions just aren't as good and are much more chaotic. Hence the problem with tropical soils, and to a lesser extent with subtropical soils.



We can finally come back to charcoal.

So what's the selling point of charcoal? Well, it has all the buffering, nutrient holding, water and oxygen storing, and related benefits of regular soil organic matter, and has high surface area via its wild porosity and so can provide a lot of media to grow on. But unlike soil organic matter, charcoal is extremely stable in the soil and has a far, far, far lower rate of degradation and oxidation. Sure, there are mineral nutrients that might be left over still trapped down in a glassy mass of vitreous carbon, just as there can be in humin, but as with the point above, it's not the few nutrients that are trapped in the long-lived forms of soil carbon that matter, it's all the nutrients constantly cycling on the chemical medium provided by those long-lived forms of soil carbon that matter, and all the good conditions it creates by moderating water, oxygen, etc.

There's a few other things charcoal does that are quite nice. Regular soil organic matter has excellent water holding capacity, and to the extent that it causes soil particles to aggregate by basically cementing them together it also improves internal drainage. By making some particles stick together, it effectively makes the soil more coarse than it actually is, and those coarser aggregated particles don't pack together as tightly, which channelizes the soil, allowing excess water to drain through it like it would drain through sand or gravel. But that soil organic matter is still trapping and absorbing lots of water which will then slowly release. This process only works to a point, though, because what happens if you keep adding cement to aggregate? You get concrete, which drains really, really slowly. Basically, there are few channels for the water to flow through because there are sticky masses of soil organic matter everywhere gumming up the works. Hence why boggy soil is so reluctant to drain even when ditches are cut through it. If highly, highly aerated, highly organic soils or media can drain, for example fresh compost, but once it packs down or collapses in on itself, the drainage becomes awful. Organic matter, depending on the form, can also become highly hydrophobic when very dry, and so can be difficult to wet, which also causes drainage problems of a different sort.

This isn't the case with charcoal. Charcoal has excellent drainage, and it retains that under almost any conditions. It works in two ways. Internally, charcoal particles are highly fractured and have lots of cavities, voids, and such that water can seep through, but charcoal particles also tend to be fairly coarse and tend to be very rough and don't pack well, so water also has lots of space to drain around the particles. All that internal and external drainage space also means that it has excellent aeration, and those voids and such mean that even submerged, charcoal will often still hold a whole bunch of air. What voids and such that do end up filling with water will generally be very slow to release that water due to water adhesion, especially since charcoal is chemically active enough that it'll try to hold on to that water through hydrogen bonding, van der waals forces, and a slew of other means. So it has great moisture holding capacity as well.

Which all sounds great, and to an extent it is. But remember that all of this is just providing good conditions for soil microbial life? Build and they will come is only true up to a point. Excellent soil characteristics will hit a wall of diminishing returns and the microbial life and nutrient cycling will end up being rate limited by something other than water and oxygen levels or surface area and CEC or pH buffering. Where is that point of diminishing returns? Depends on the soil, the plants, the climate, etc. It's likely somewhere around the normal soil organic matter content of most healthy, fertile, rich soils, which is between just 3-6% soil organic matter believe it or not. After that point, you're not getting much benefit in most cases.

And that means that in temperate zones where the soil organic matter will already be close to or at the ideal level, adding charcoal is unlikely to do much in terms of soil microbial activity. Unfortunately.

There can be other reasons for using it though. The rough edges and texture of charcoal can be useful for controlling or deterring certain pests, for example. And recall that the aeration and drainage of charcoal are far superior to that of soil organic matter at higher percentages? In some cases, waterlogged or anaerobic soil needs to be avoided at all costs, such as when growing succulents or dealing with disease pressures that occur in those conditions. In that case, adding a large amount of charcoal might tilt the soil more towards those conditions. Add enough charcoal and the soil might eventually get to the point where it's exceptionally well drained while still moisture retentive, to the point where standing water is almost impossible but plants still get plenty of moisture from the soil despite that drainage and oxygen levels remain high pretty much all the time. There's actually a real life soil type out there that's like that. Volcanic soils. It's also highly erodible, and DIYing a volcanic soil garden would mean applying something like six feet of charcoal to the whole thing and somehow tilling it in, which sounds a little unrealistic. So there's that. Chemically they're also not actually that similar but close enough for this example.

That point about drainage though also applies to a related product that is used in bulk to improve soil hydrological characteristics, PermaTill and other expanded slate products, and other more well-known expanded minerals like perlite and vermiculite which tend not to be used in bulk due to cost and other issues.

When it comes to those difficult soils in the wet subtropics and especially in the wet tropics, however, charcoal can have a significant impact on the fertility of the soil because high soil organic matter, the holy grail of conventional organic gardening doctrine, doesn't exist in the wet tropics, and is a fleeting, capricious thing in the wet subtropics. In the Amazon, and in the South to an extent, you have to manure and mulch over and over and over. And within a growing season or so, it's all gone already like dust in the wind or tears in the rain, or in this case CO2 in the wind and solutes in the rainwater. The advantage of terra preta is that it's made of things that are not biodegradable, but that have much or all the benefits of soil organic matter. The pottery, by the way, is similar to the charcoal, though probably a bit inferior since it'll have a lower CEC.

As for terra preta "regenerating" itself, sounds like hype to me. More than likely, it was just that after they scraped the topsoil away, charcoal particles that had been dispersed in the subsoil started coalescing in the new topsoil layer, turning it black again. Charcoal being very light, it will tend to collect near the surface unless buried deeply through some kind of animal or human driven mechanical action. They probably saw a pale subsoil that after a while miraculously "regenerated" the dark color and superior texture and thought the dark materials were somehow regenerating. Almost certainly not, they were just finally not buried in the highly stratified subsoil and could move around again, which mostly means collecting in the top few inches. What may have even happed was there could have been a mineral deposition formed hardpan layer in the subsoil at the aerobic to anaerobic transition point or something, but after they removed the topsoil that transition point dropped deeper into the soil, which enabled all those minerals that were cementing the hardpan to dissolve, loosening the soil and allowing those charcoal particles to move around. Who knows, but among the least likely of options was a chemical process that requires carbon feedstock, combustion, 800 F temperatures, and sudden but sustained oxygen depletion was somehow spontaneously happening in the soil after they scraped off the topsoil...

Charcoal as a soil amendment is already kinda miraculous, we don't need to be conjuring up even more miraculous properties that make a mockery of reason and well-informed good sense.





2 weeks ago

Jen Swanson wrote:
I have researched this topic on the internet. A lot of what I find I am not convinced that the person that wrote the article has actually done what they are recommending others do.



This sadly describes a good 90% of the gardening advice online, and probably an even higher percentage of permaculture, especially from self-promoters and people offering classes and consultation for how to permaculture. It's even worse on social media, I've seen so much content from people showing off their self-sufficient lifestyle, and yet in those videos their tools are brand new...

Anyway, I'd say there are probably two major things to hammer home:

Be brutally honest: it's hard, and unless get the right combination of resources, skill, climate, and luck, you will lose money. You meaning the average, normal person, not gardening die-hards.

Be brutally realistic: what do you actually spend the most money on when it comes to food and to what extent can they replace that with something they themselves can produce? Is it actually cucumbers and lettuce and potatoes, or is it stuff like lunchmeat and bread and eating out? Again, we're talking about normal people here, since this information is supposed to help them and not lifelong permies.

Others in this thread mentioned starting small and mentioned only growing what's worth it and hard to get or expensive to get at the grocery store. This is probably the best starting advice to give. I'd wager everyone reading this still buys food at the grocery store, even if they're not willing to admit that they do and how much they do, so you should expect people just getting into producing there own food will also still be getting their food from the grocery store. Given that, it's clear we're not talking how to be self-sufficient, we're talking how to economize and optimize, and that's an entirely different ballgame.

So, going back to the starting points, people who want to save money by producing some of their own food should start by figuring out what's realistic for them. Do they have land that they are able to cultivate? Do they have cheap, good water that isn't searingly alkaline? Is there space for chipdrop to swing by and leave a few thousand pounds of woodchips? Do they have a truck bed that can get scratched and dinged up or a bulk trailer? If not, it's going to be exceptionally difficult to grow vegetables in any real capacity. Vegetables have some of the highest requirements for fertility, water, and good soil. To say nothing of labor, do they have good manual dexterity, knees and backs that are well-functioning, and time to spare on a regular basis for tending to the plants?

And it's not just resources, it's climate. Where you live determines what's realistic and what's economical. In the PNW? Heat-loving veggies are going to underperform. In the South? The vast majority of traditional vegetables were bred for moderate-to-cold temperate climates, and you're squarely in the subtropics, so don't even think about carrots or rhubarb or potatoes. Each climate has its own advantages as well, of course, so try to figure those out before spending years and thousands of dollars on failures. Do your research and start small.

More than likely, doing your research will include actually looking at what's cheap (corn, beans, carrots, potatoes, cherry tomatoes, apples, pears, bananas--holy smokes bananas are so cheap) and what's eye-wateringly expensive (fresh berries, pecans, herbs, stone fruits, passion fruit) or completely unavailable (figs, persimmons in most of the US, currants and other uncommon berries, feijoa). Notice how all the expensive and hard to get ones are also perennials or woody plants? Now what's easier to grow, carrots that have to be cultivated and weeded and watered, and which have to be restarted each year, or a fruiting shrub like feijoa that you plant once and then just harvest for the rest of your life?

But then go one step further. What do people actually spend their grocery money on? I'll bet you it isn't fresh produce. It's things like milk and eggs and meat and pre-prepared foods. If someone's considering gardening for economic reasons, they it's not the hobby of gardening or the personal philosophy of permaculture that they're interested in: they're interested in producing food for themselves to save money. So start with the big ticket items. No, don't buy a goat because milk is expensive. Goats and goat feed are even more expensive. Focus on learning how to make more of your own meals at home, because that is by far the biggest part of that, and by extension learning to make food that you actually end up eating and making again, is a huge part of that. Find out what kinds of meat are the most economical where you are, it'll probably be a somewhat random thing in bulk, and it'll vary place-to-place. For me, chicken leg quarters in 10 lb bags are the cheapest, followed by whole pork loin. So buy a few big cutting boards, ideally non-porous ones that fit your dishwater like the professional kitchens use, and a few lower-end chef knives, and a draw sharpener that's easy to use and therefore will actually get used so the knives stay sharp. Want to save money by gardening? Find a really simple, really easy bread recipe, ideally sandwich bread since, let's be honest, that's what you actually eat most of the time. No, not sourdough, if you want those flavors just use a cold ferment, sourdough is sexy and trendy but it's a huge time sink and has a steep learning curve and the invention of the refrigerator made it obsolete for anything but hobby bread baking. Baker's yeast is cheap and cold ferments don't need much yeast at all. KISS: Keep it simple stupid. Start by learning how to reasonably handle and use up big, cheap hunks of meat and how to meal prep and do easy baked goods, because that's where you'll actually save money. Then focus on things you can grow.

...which, if we keep the same brutal practical mindedness, means growing herbs, fruits, and berries, but only the extremely low-care, easy ones. No stone fruit. No apples. Probably not pears unless you live somewhere fireblight-free. Research your climate. Can you grow goumi, che, figs, hybrid persimmons, pawpaws, hybrid hazelnuts, passion fruit, currants, or blueberries easily where you live? What kind of raspberry or blackberry options do you have where you are, and how bad is your deer pressure? Lots of deer means you need to get thorny varieties. Keep in mind trailing varieties mean more work, erect varieties require less labor. We're talking practical here, so if you have to train and prune and tip and train and weed and etc. then it's not a realistic option. Erect canes that only require a wire or two and some t-posts are vastly better, and cheaper, than trailing varieties that require complex and expensive trellises and constant care.

Do you use rosemary or thyme or lemon balm or mint or sage? Get the ones you actually use in the kitchen and grow them. Don't grow stuff you don't use. Grow perennials first, annuals are always more work. As for annuals, parsley and cilantro are usually dirt cheap while basil is usually expensive, so which one should you grow? Just the basil. And maybe grow it in a pot so you don't have to weed it.

Speaking of not growing things you won't eat, at some point, especially if you plant fruit bearing plants, you'll end up with more than you can eat fresh. So let's talk preservation. What's the cheapest, easiest, simplest, safest way to preserve food that also preserves the most nutrients? Refrigerating and freezing. Ok, then use the fridge to preserve things short term and freeze what you have in excess long term. Canning is almost never worth the effort and expense for a beginner, and wastes all the nutrients and flavor anyway. If you must dry for sentimental reasons, just partially dry and refrigerate or freeze (room-temperature shelf-stable requires way, way, way more drying, so don't do that and use the tools that are readably available to you, your fridge and your freezer). Freeze things in small quantities, and label and date everything! If you are double-bagging freezer items, just put a piece of paper in the second bag with the label and date, it'll be way easier to read than a half-rubbed off marker scribble on the uneven side of a bag. And if you find next year that you still have leftover preserved food, then just let your excess go to waste. Don't preserve food that you aren't going to eat, because if you aren't going to eat it then don't pretend like you're going to eat it and waste time, money, plastic, and energy on preserving it for a later date when you still won't eat it. Be honest with yourself and just don't eat it now instead of not eating it later. The birds will be happy to eat it for you.

Alrighty, I've probably killed enough sacred cows here to supply a burger restaurant for a month, so I'll leave it at that.

Leigh Tate wrote:To Mike and Tereza's point about rain, we have been getting a lot of rain, especially this spring.



It's very unusual for an established fig tree to die like that in our climate (I'm also in the South, just a half zone warmer). I suppose excessively wet soil could be doing it. Is that area also fairly shady? Figs don't take well to shade, so wet shade might be enough to do them in in wet years.

I know root knot nematodes can kill figs as well, but I would be surprised if you've got them bad if you're in 7b, especially if you have heavy soil.

If it is too much rain causing wet soil, then it might be worth trying a variety with Ficus palmata heritage in it. Both Alma and Cherry Cordial would fit the bill. The palmata genetics seems to make them more moisture-loving than straight F. carica. And while I only have experience with Alma, I can vouch for its exceptional rain resistance when ripening fruit.


Here's an Alma after several weeks of almost daily rain. That's not water dripping, that's syrup! Even with all the rain, the figs were unspoiled and very sweet.

So yeah, if the issue is excessive moisture, you might could try Alma or Cherry Cordial. It's no guarantee, but I think you'd have better odds. And of course, give them as much light as you can and trim any trees that might be shading them.
1 month ago

Marty Mac wrote:I'm in the Ozarks zone 7a.  My place was part time for the first 10 years or so. I killed a lot of  fruit trees and berry bushes.  

I had a few survive. A fig tree that was planted next to a small seasonal pond. Paw Paws that are native. The scrawniest ugliest Alberta peach Ive ever seen, It was headed for the end of season trash at a local nursery.   Blackberry bush that has thrived.  Concord grapes refuse to die but don't produce much.  



Most fruit trees are high maintenance, as are a lot of berries. Jujube would be worth trying, though they're not cheap. But they are difficult from seed, slow to fruit, and don't reliably produce good fruit from seed, so despite the cost, grafted trees from a nursery are probably the best bet. Some of the hybrid persimmons might do alright if they have decent soil and moisture, and they have phenomenal fruit if you can get them to establish. Many of them were bred in Crimea and in southern Ukraine where it's quite cold and dry. You could grow mulberry on moist sites.

Crandall clove currants should do well in that area. They do great planted as bare root since they've got massive root systems that transplant pretty well. I'm sure there's some Elaeagnus that likes your location, but you might not like Elaeagnus so... UofArk has a great blackberry series. Kiowa is probably the biggest, meanest, toughest one, whereas Ponca or Prime Ark Freedom are the nicest.

More unusual, but you can probably grow Osage orange, which means you can probably graft Che onto Osage orange. Che takes a while to mature and actually hold its fruit, but once it does they are quite tasty. Osage orange rootstock is of course gonna be really drought tolerant. And if you baby them the first few winters, you could probably grow some citrandarins like US-942, US-852, Bishop, or even something like the Prague Chimera.

I personally only consider trees, shrubs, and a tiny number of brambles and herbs truly "plant and forget." Plant and forget means that not only is it free of serious pests or disease, it also needs to be large enough to handle weeds for months or years at a time and not get suffocated. Which means it needs to be big, tall, and ideally woody.

A lot is climate dependent of course. Warmer, wetter climates are less forgiving and the weeds are meaner and burlier--some bigpod sesbenia volunteered in one of my beds this year and it's already more than twelve feet tall, who knows how big it'll be by the end of summer--whereas in drier and colder climates things are slowing moving and usually smaller. So a 4 inch tall groundcover might be plant and forget in Vermont or Idaho, but there's no way in heck I could plant something that short and not spend the rest of its life pulling weeds every few months to keep it from being choked out for example. On the flip side, drier also means you might need irrigation, but if there's a chance that a plant, once established, might need manual irrigation at any point to keep it alive or producing, then it's not plant and forget in my book. Hence why I mentioned jujube and Crandall clove current above as they're both very drought tolerant.
1 month ago

Garrett Schantz wrote: If you're buying things from nurseries, you do need to probably let plants adjust to growing in a colder area...   ...Some species won't adjust until all of their leaves die off...   ...For Avocados, I'd get something bare root, if that's a thing and plant them mid spring or earlier when chances of cold are gone. That way they experience some cold.



That's unfortunately not how it works. Exposing the plants to cold earlier on does not increase their hardiness later on. The only adjustment they make for cold is dormancy, and dormancy doesn't carry over from one winter to the next. If it did, warm spells causing early blooms that get zapped by frosts wouldn't be a thing. There is no process of adaptation where a non-hardy tree will slowly get more and more hardy if slowly exposed to colder temperatures. Believe me, people have tried, over and over, and they always get the same result: the trees die as soon as they are exposed to cold below their hardiness threshold. Trees that were babied and kept in greenhouses for years and then exposed to cold have the exact same hardiness as trees that get exposed every winter.

Garrett Schantz wrote: I'd personally suggest growing seeds from cold hardy type. Roots need established pretty well in your climate, and they need to adjust to winds and things.



Have you grown many avocados yourself?
1 month ago

Marty Mitchell wrote:
I wonder if Citrus is able to adapt to cold over a few generations. Perhaps taking an extremely cold-hardy variant (with edible fruit though) like the Yuzu... cross-pollinate with another cold hard variant... and see what happens. You would have to keep exposing them to hard colds before breeding though.



Hi Marty,

The general consensus with most people who grow hardy citrus and who zone-push citrus is that they do not adapt to colder temperatures over time or generations. What improves hardiness is age, shelter, physical size, health, how warm the previous summer was, and not over-bearing. The main thing is that the trees can retain as much heat as possible from shelter and thermals mass, aren't stressed, and have adequate stores of carbohydrates. It's debated if rootstock adds much hardiness, but the consensus is that it helps at least a little bit, but no more than a few degrees in most cases. Being fully dormant is also extremely important, as even a Yuzu or Trifoliate Orange can be killed by light freezes if they're not dormant or are otherwise stressed. Recently rooted cuttings, new grafts, and seedlings are also much less hardy.

As for seedlings and making crosses, the main issue is that the vast majority of citrus varieties have nucellar seeds. This means that most of the seeds, regardless of pollination, are genetic clones of the mother plant. If you cross an orange with a yuzu, then if the mother plant was an orange the seedlings will be oranges and if the mother parent was a yuzu the seedlings will be yuzus. The only way to get an orange-yuzu cross would be either collecting the seed embryos a few weeks after pollination and tissue culturing them using embryo-rescue techniques, or by planting literally hundreds or thousands of seeds and growing them out in the hopes that a few of them will show morphological differences. The ratio of nucellar seeds (clones of the mother) to zygotic seeds (crosses two parents) in nucellar citrus ranges depending on the varieties and conditions, but is usually >90% and often >98-99%. Given the fact that seedlings often need to be culled for poor root formation or lack of vigor, and you're looking at maybe needing to plant 1000 seeds to get just a single hybrid--and it might be a decade before you even know which of the 1000 seedlings is the hybrid. And most citrus can self-pollinate, so in this example you'd either have to castrate and bag every single flower you hand pollinate to get those 1000 seeds, or you'll have to plant tens of thousands of OP seeds and growing them out in the hopes of maybe getting a single hybrid. Most folks don't have space for ten or twenty thousand orange trees.

There are a few zygotic varieties though, and some nucellar varieties are closer to 50/50 rather than 99%, so it's not entirely hopeless, but it is quite tricky. Also, many cold hardiness traits, such as deciduousness, are recessive, so even true seedlings between a hardy and a non-hardy citrus are often non-hardy rather than half-hardy.

Marty Mitchell wrote:
One more thing... those "Thomasville Citrangequats" I have are supposed to be a set it and forget it tree for my area. I have them growing out in pots this year... and may leave them in there next year as well since they are slow growers. They shall be in the ground at some point as well.



Thomasville is mostly hardy, yes. It's pretty good in zone 8, borderline in zone 7, once established. Be sure to plant it in the spring, not the fall as fall-planted citrus are not nearly as hardy as spring-planted ones. Also, Thomasville, because of its kumquat parentage, tends to over-bear in the extreme, and is way more likely to be winter-killed if it over-bears. The first year or two in ground all the fruit should be removed. It wouldn't hurt to give it a lot of nitrogen in spring and early summer to encourage it to size up, as under normal fertilization conditions it puts almost all its energy into blooming rather than growing. High grafting and grafting onto citrumelo rootstock rather than trifoliate or citrandarin helps.
1 month ago