Hugh Hawk

Varina: Bearing in mind those would be 'seedling' apple & cherry (grown in situ from seed), not grafted ones. Re sunflower family, sunflowers themselves are reported to have a mild allelopathic effect. Could be a possibility but not if you want something low.

Varina, interesting document here discussing the tree rooting patterns in different soil conditions. See table on p.6. Soil type 4 is for 'impervious subsoils'. Interesting to see which plants root deeply in this situation (best being Japanese Larch - up to 2.5m).

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcin078.pdf/$file/fcin078.pdf

Pamela: I don't know if bindweed not being on the oregonbd website list of dynamic accumulators means it definitely is not an accumulator. I am sure that list is not exhaustive. Given bindweed's extremely deep roots, I'd be very surprised if it did not accumulate something. It sure generates a lot of biomass!

Matu: how about trying a garlic spray on part of your bindweed? I.e. crush some garlic, strain then spray onto the leaves. No idea if it will have any effect, but it seems there is something the garlic exudes which repels the weed. I have read about this before.

They are penned but I throw in lots of greens for them most days which I pick off plants around the garden. They eat lots of different greens but I thought high protein feed like alfalfa & tree lucerne should be really good for them (they loooooove sunflower seeds). They just don't seem to recognise these leaves as a food right now, which is a pity because I have a lot available.

Varina, in my observation the rye kept the bindweed out during it's growth and the bindweed didn't seem to recapture that area for about 12 months after cutting the rye.

Re trees and other plants going into the subsoil, it depends on the tree. Most fruit trees have a fibrous root system which is shallow but some trees and plants have taproots. These are often the fast growing pioneer species which dont need a good topsoil.

Good idea, certainly on broadacre it's a lot less work If it works, anyway. I haven't had a lot of success thus far with daikon but I am trying again today!

Interesting that you, too, have the dense clay layer under fairly shallow topsoil, Matu. That makes 3 of us with this condition and with bindweed.

One technique I have tried on the small scale to remedy this, is hammering a thin metal stake into the ground repeatedly over a small area. I find I can usually tell when it has broken through the hard layer and the clay underneath tends to be softer, there seems to be a layer of hard stuff on the top of the B horizon. I have done this when planting some of my trees to try to help them get their roots down into the deeper soil. Will have to try that when prepping my next vegetable bed...

Think there is something to the Kourik advice about hardpans, and also about alkalinity. I have alkaline soil with a fairly impenetrable clay/calcium layer 1-2 feet below the surface, and have problems with bindweed.

I think ryegrass would be worth trying on the broadacre scale. I grew it in a few plots years ago, and it kept the bindweed out for 18-24 months. It doesn't have to compete with the bindweed to get established, as here the bindweed is dying back during autumn/winter when the rye is planted. By the time the bindweed starts to grow again the rye is very thick and relatively tall. Perhaps its roots exert some effect (exudates?) as well, since the bindweed just didn't seem to come up at all in that spot.

Thanks for your insight Wayne.

Unfortunately I am in a backyard situation and have very limited space. I like the idea of chicken rotation, but even that would be stretching my space, which is planted out to many things the chickens would soon destroy. Since I have mature chickens, I am looking for ways to teach them rather than have to start again with chicks.

Today I tried adding a good quantity of tree lucerne leaf to porridge (which they love). They went for it eagerly, not making any attempt to only eat the porridge part - so far, so good. I have also put some fresh tree lucerne leaf in there, but I think it will take a bit more training before they go for that by itself. That is the goal though. I'll keep feeding them with this mix every few days and increase the quantity of leaf.

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