Michael Drotor

I love this forum! Continually amazed at all of the stuff that gets posted here that challenges my mindset and really makes me think.

I've been having thoughts that I'm wasting time preaching to the choir lately. Feeling like it's time to build my pedal powered rv and go spread the sustainability love in places that have never heard of permaculture.

I have definitely found that I don't like cops, crime, or heavy traffic though so maybe my mission should be interaction with people in small towns or other countries.

While a big part of me wants to disappear into the wild with some good friends, which I plan to do at times, I definitely agree that the presence of forward thinking people in unintentional society is a good thing.

I looked at the wiki for facilitator and I would equate that definition with that of a good leader so maybe I should start using the correct terminology.

Assaf Koss wrote:So, on the one hand you're trying to reach independent people, while on the other hand you want to be their leader and manage them with veto power? You do see how those two things don't match. Like, at all. :=D

Any successful tribe or community does choose who lives with them.

I was about to wait for other responses, until I saw this. You must study Anthropology! This is just utterly wrong. People leave tribes for various reasons, but it's almost non-existent (as in documented, for generations) that anyone would be kicked out of a tribe. Being actually kicked out is similar to a death sentence, in tribal society. It just doesn't happen over disagreements about lifestyle. I have seen, documented, gays in tribes being accepted. It's not uncommon to have a shaman as part of the tribe, who lives very differently and slightly apart from his tribe, but still accepted as a member. Through many papers, articles and videos, I have yet to see someone who was simply kicked out.

Only in the age of the city do people have the ability to disconnect from their family and survive comfortably, not to mention with company. Obviously, this would be irrelevant to a permaculture village in its' design, because otherwise, you need cities for such villages to work. That wouldn't be sustainable.

...a big reason that the earthship project is successful is because of his clear vision, tenacity, and leadership.

The Earthship project is surely successful, because of Mike's effort, no doubt. I have seen his documentary. However, when he describes the people who live with him, he doesn't ascribe the results to himself. He doesn't seem to be aware of the factors at work, socially.

It happens frequently so I'm not surprised, but you have misread me. I said that I wanted to retain veto power in the beginning and this veto power would only apply to the project design and membership, not to anyone's individual living habits. This measure of control is just to make sure the permaculture design and construction process goes smoothly and a core group that gets along can be established quickly. It's a fact that most projects happen quicker and easier when there is a clear leader. This has been demonstrated to me throughout my life. Once the systems are flourishing and the community is stable, there should be no need for leadership at all. The permaculture system itself will become the leader.

You're right about it being rare that people are kicked out of tribes but since that possibility is there, people tend to shape up. Since primitive tribes become and stay so relatively uniform, that leads me to believe that the possibility of being exiled is enough to whip people into shape. Because of that, it's extremely rare that there is a disagreement about lifestyle. When starting a new community compromised of people from all kinds of different lifestyles, someone is going to have to set a precedent and a basic structure for the tribe to follow in the future. If everyone was born into the tribe, again, this leadership might not be necessary long term.

Seeing a documentary is one thing, working with someone is something else. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Reynolds is well aware of what he brought to that project. He doesn't need to ascribe the results to himself because it's blatantly obvious that if he didn't stay strong with his vision that the project would likely have dissolved years ago.

To Merced,

I liked your reference to the leader cell in the muscle. I think that we should be modeling everything after nature and that was a great reference. If we dig deep into that reference, we can see that each cell has a leader inside it that is the exact same leader as all of the other cells. It's called DNA. To translate this into a group of people, the DNA is a clear, shared vision. This internal leader keeps the group organized and cooperating. But what can that muscle do without the brain that controls it? Nothing. So in a community, the brain could be the leader that sets the group into motion or action. When a community is new, there needs to be some kind of leader to program that DNA into the community and be the brain to set the community into action, but once the community is established, the DNA is present in the members and the permaculture system itself becomes the motivation, in essence removing the need for an external leader. It all follows the path of nature well.

The idea about the design of the community attracting the appropriate members is an excellent one and something that I have tried to do with my project. Since it's directed at artists, musicians, and inventors and will be a pretty primitive camp in a remote area, I'd hoped that it would attract creative types that like to and know how to exist off-grid. So far, there has only been interest from people that are currently living in cities, working 9-5 jobs, and dreaming of a better life. It's likely that the people that I'm trying to reach are just difficult to reach so I haven't lost hope. Just pointing out an early trend in applicants.

As far as me being the leader of my project goes, I'm simply standing in at that position until someone else proves that they're up to taking over or the group proves that it can function without the need for a leader. With permaculture systems being so sensitive to input, I think it's really important to have a project manager until the systems are established and the community is familiar with them. I've seen projects with no clear leader and they usually end up looking more like dumps than a communities. Anyone that helps with my project will definitely be involved in the design process if they want to be but in the beginning at least, I'm going to retain veto power.

I've met Mike Reynolds and a few people that have worked with him and any personal differences that may have arisen within that group aside, a big reason that the earthship project is successful is because of his clear vision, tenacity, and leadership. If he just handed out the books, and let people move into the gravel pit and go wild, it's highly likely that there would be no Greater World community today.

Any successful tribe or community does choose who lives with them. Those that don't fit in are commonly forced to conform or they are exiled. This is one of the reasons why tribes worked for so long. The rule was cooperate or get out. When members of a community can't choose their neighbors and have no way to encourage cooperation like in big cities, the communities frequently fall apart or are overtaken by crime and poverty. While a world with no leaders and self directing projects seems really beautiful to me, I really don't think that humanity in general will be ready for this for quite a while.

So far, no one has been "judged ill suited". Once I describe the reality of homesteading off-grid to people, it's rare that I hear back from them and when I do, the overwhelming response has been something like, "Well neat idea. Get in touch when everything's setup and I might come check it out." I think it's more that the people I'm looking for are very rare and most are likely really busy with trying to survive within the system, being distracted by technology and propaganda, and are making just enough progress on their creative endeavors to keep them on their path. I do think that once they see that a largely money free sustainable community with basic, common sense rules is out there, there will be more interest.

Back to the original topic though. I really think that a sustainable community is a holistic entity and that participants are going to have to agree about how they want to live on many levels. The community "design" has to go much deeper than the physical/agricultural/permacultural aspect of it and usually, it takes some kind of leader to unify people to this degree. I really think that humans are meant to live in tribes.

This is very similar to my plans for the Camp Exist project but there's a big flaw. That flaw is that a large percentage of people really need to be controlled. This could be all in their heads, or due to some mental deficiency, but it's a common problem with humanity. In my project, I asked that anyone that wants to join be capable of and willing to provide themselves with the basics....food, water, shelter. After a couple thousand views of my website and numerous inquiries, I haven't yet found even one person that actually has the skills and drive to pull their own weight. Everyone that's been interested knows very little about actually surviving off the grid and wants to be taught or led. Although this gives me a little hope, overall, it's kind of depressing. I thought that creating a place for people to exist would open doors for a lot of people that are existing outside of the system but want to put in roots, but so far, it looks like I'll be alone in the woods.

If people were smarter, better educated, more driven, and more honest, a community without hierarchy could thrive but I'm really afraid that westernized industrial culture has devolved humanity past the point of no return. As the Dead Kennedys once said, "We've got to rise above the need for cops and laws!" This challenge is still out there and hasn't been met yet.

This sounds like an awesome opportunity for someone! I'm doing my own thing down here in AZ but if I didn't have dogs, tools, music gear, etc, and was more mobile, I'd be heading north! I have good friends in Eugene and have been wanting to spend a summer up there for a long time. They just started a restaurant called Party! If you haven't met them yet, they might be interested in buying herbs and veggies from your group.

This is a great idea. I used to live in Yarnell and had similar thoughts when I lived there, before the fire. The main problem with the town was that there were a few older people that basically owned everything in town and they wanted out but they wouldn't settle for anything less that pre-bubble sized lumps of cash in hand. We actually proposed the idea of setting up a fair trade coffee shop/brewery/gallery there with the hopes of attracting younger people to the area but the land owners just wanted to cash out or let their town die while trying. Hopefully, something positive comes out of that fire and the town decides to wake up to new possibilities! I can just see Glen Ilah being rebuilt with cool little green homes propped up between the rocks!

Hi Helen,

I'm a fellow rv dweller currently camping in the Verde Valley, AZ. I'm on a very similar mission and am hoping to hit the road sometime this month. Just trying to get a few little things finished on the rv and save a little gas money. If you want to meet up when you come through AZ, drop me a line. I always enjoy meeting other like minded folks.

Danny