Samuel Kuo

Bryant RedHawk wrote:hau Samuel, cover crops do far better when grown as a mix.
Why would someone want to monocrop a cover crop?
I use a blend of something around 20 different plant species for covers, four of them are clovers, buckwheat, alfalfa, cereal rye, fescue, annual rye, rape, seven top turnip and on and on.
The reason for this is to get variety and thus diversity along with the many different root growth patterns, bacteria diversity, fungal diversity, the more different plants that are used, the better the end result soil will be.

Redhawk

going off topic again but now my question is on the Fukuoka method of broadcasting seeds onto the cover crop. All these cover crop seems to have anti weed property, I think because they crowd area out before weed can take hold. So my thing with grass is that they grow so tightly that if you were to broadcast say for example tomato seeds onto grass, I'm not sure if tomatoes will ever be able to grow through the thick patch of grass. At least this is my current experiences with all the lawns I've seen. The soil underneath is tightly knit by the grass roots so it becomes hard. However clover don't seem to do this from my observation. They don't grow as tight as lawn and there are crevices in between where clovers grow and soil is soft. when seeds are broadcasted seeds can find a niche to grow in. My question is how to grow via seed balls methods when all these cover crop have "crowd out every other plant thus anti weed property"? And I'm thinking that clovers not being as anti weedy as grass is a better balance to have living mulch and to still be able to broadcast seeds onto.

Off topic but did Fukuoka include fruit tree seeds in his seed balls? I understand that with seed balls, plants probably get naturally thinned out with the weaker slower growing plants growing in the shade of another plant thus  more likely to be eaten by insects because it's weak. But how would this work for trees that are growing too close? I'm sure that in a forest, eventually over a hundred year or so trees naturally thin out to their optimum spacing with weaker trees dieing earlier and the lucky trees that are spaced out more evenly grow healthy. But wouldn't this process take like a hundred years? My question is when doing Fukuoka gardening , how do you approach planting fruit trees? Would Fukuoka just include them in his seedball which probably would result in overcrowded fruit trees or would he manually plant them perfectly spaced for his orchard?

Gurkan Yeniceri wrote:I have converted the table 4.11 in Fukuoka-San's book "The Natural Way of Farming" into an Excel sheet and took a screen shot.



enjoy

. What's grass for when cover cropping? It says weed control but don't they all weed control?  Do grass fix nitrogen like clover does? Or does nitrogen fixing even matter if grass has so much nutrients (think wheatgrass, has all mineral and nutrients known possible). My question is why would I ever include grass in my mix of cover crop when clover seems to offer me more benefits? Or do cover crop grow better when mixed up?

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I have been feeling uneasy about the crazy winds mentioned in the title of this thread, and the ongoing comments about mitigating winds. When I closely examine photos of the trees in Ocean View, I don't see much evidence that wind is particularly troubling to them. They tend to be growing approximately vertical.  

A recent comment about "dry air" was particularly jarring to me... This is Hawaii that we are talking about, where it is humid to muggy more than 85% of the time... Seems to me, like the winds should be welcomed into the garden in celebration of the humidity and mugginess that they bring with them, not excluded by fears of drying stuff out. I have never built an air-well, they won't work here, but it seems like they would thrive on being exposed to wind.

Manually moving bedrock is back-breakingly slow work. A person might work all week, and only have moved enough rock set a kitchen chair into the pit. Moving bedrock with equipment isn't much quicker...

My experience is that it is the small things that are the most effective at terraforming:

Going out during a rainstorm, to watch where the water runs, and putting a pebble or twig into a rivulet to slow the flow a little bit...
Doing that during 1000 rainstorms could accomplish a tremendous amount of terraforming.  
Visiting on a foggy day to pay attention to which species of plants collect the most mist, and planting more of them.
Going out first thing in the morning to measure which rock configurations are collecting the most dew.

There have been a few posts in this thread by those who are living/working in Hawaii. They strike me as the most valuable: Local advice for local problems.

ocean view is generally windy. Hawaii is the island of extremes.  We have 10 of the 14 climate zones. North you have lush green, rainy and humid. South you have barren land, dry air, little rain compared to downtown. People don't like ocean view since there is local superstition of the land being cursed. It's right next to the largest volcano after all. Lots of underground acitivity. If you go way over to South point, the trees are all bent. People living there report 90 mph wind. Seems dependent on the elevation though my site doesn't seem to be that bad. Rainwater here just sinks as there is no soil to hold moisture. Not sure if rivulets even form here. I don't think I've ever seen a river or traces of river here. Land is otherworldly here. It's like Mars, maybe even hell.  Yeah I've been working on observing the natural vegetation here. Lots of dead ohia rainforests here. Small stunted weed like plant and shrubs growing here and there in crevices of rocks. I wish I had a convenient app that could identify these wild plants for me.
Macadamia nut seem  to thrive here so I'll probably plant 1. And I know lava rocks must be the most mineral dense gardening material  out there. But there is not much info on Google on how to garden on lava flow.. yeah local advice is prob best for me as gardening here will be very different.

Steve Farmer wrote:Grab your potted tree and find a spot with another tree nearby so it won't get lonely.

£90 chinese inverter from ebay UK and 40 euro cheap Lidl hammer drill. Spend some money on quality tools if you like but this stuff has lasted me years in the heat and dust. The 25 yr old Land Cruiser... now that IS quality

Any updates on how the trees are doing?

Jo Hunter-Adams wrote:Are you living on site? If not, I would suggest starting by just piling up all free sources of biomass.

Before adding trees as windbreaks, I would trial a few (keeping them in bags) for a week or two in the place you want to plant, to acclimate them and see how they do. Piles of biomass can also act as a windbreak for the windbreak, if you're not living on site? I.e. pile biomass high, planting in behind it. You can always move the biomass once the windbreak is established. If there's anything that you can free seeds/cuttings for (e.g. pineapple heads from restaurants), I would consider trying those in bags to start, then transplanting out.

If there's nothing really growing, I wouldn't worry too much about whether something is edible to start with-- If you find you're getting plants (cheap, hardy plants!) growing it'll be easy to chop and drop (and make more piles of biomass). For year one biomass and any types of cheap/free plants at all would seem a good experiment.

. I'm not living there at the moment. I'll start this project in January so I'm just brainstorming at the moment.                                           step 1 make a gigantic rock berm for instant windbreak.                
   Step 2 plant windbreak plants into the pit from where I dug lava rocks out from for making rock berm windbreak.                                                                            Step 3   pile lots of organic berms layered like a compost pile and let it compost for a season. In between the berms plant some annuals so I have something to eat. The berm will also be a wind break and redirect water towards the plants.                                        
 Step 4 after I harvest annuals, the compost berms should be perfect soil. Just will have to rake evenly and ill have a couple inches of soil above the lava rocks.   Living windbreak should be somewhat established by now.  
 Step 5 From here focus on fibrous rooted plants that can send roots horizontally so it doesn't hit the bedrock below: banana tree, cacao tree, papaya etc.. I want banana since they generate a butt load of organic mulch. Focusing on big plants since I want the microclimate that they make to counter dry air, create more organic matter, and to attract clouds for rain
I'm still at the moment researching some edible plants that can grow on bedrock. I know coffee tree can grow on boulders. Looking into rock figs, desert figs, and lava figs. I think they can probably grow on rocks. Strangler fig sounds awesome but maybe it might be too invasive. Kiawe too I hear is indestructible, grow on rocks, resistant to wind, and makes flour for baking goods. Wondering if moringa can grow well here. Anyone know about plants that grow well on bedrock, lava, Rocky outcrop, etc...?

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Samuel Kuo wrote:How long will it take for lichen and wind erosion to erode rock to soil?

Takes a very long time to erode rock... However, even without erosion, lichen is a living thing. It dies and creates soil.

Samuel Kuo wrote:I realize that this works with natural succession but can't we simply speed up succession by importing soil which is what the land wants? What are the  negative consequences of doing this? Or what if we just have a machine that manually breaks the rocks into sand and add organic matter to it to create soil?

You haven't commented about the budget for this project. Most of the suggestions you received were low cost activities that you can do with minimal labor and finances. Things which will allow the local ecosystem to create conditions to support a richer local ecosystem. Last time I calculated the cost of adding 4 inches of compost to my 2 acre field, it was more than the cost of the land: Enough to have built a decent house. And was approximately the total inventory of my county's compost manufacturing capabilities. If I am importing compost onto a piece of land, I am desertifying the areas where the compost came from.

I am on a tight budget. Maybe around 3000 to 5000. I’d like the bulk of the cost to be going into buying fruit trees and fruiting shrubs and bush.

What about inter bay mulching 18 inches over the lava rocks with free wood chips from the dump mixed with clean organic material I have access to, such as  kitchen scraps from organic vegan restaurants? Let it compost down over 6 months = hopefully 10 inches of forest floor soil over the lava rocks. Meanwhile it’s composting I plant a hedge of wind break.

Can lichen grow under mulch? Maybe I can grow lichen underneath the inter bay mulch?

I was also wondering if covering with burlap is really necessary for inter bay mulching. Isn’t it just possible to cover with about 2 more inches of wood chips to deprive light to the organic matter underneath?

I also spoke with Paul gautschi over the phone (back to Eden gardener). He said he would just set bare root fruit trees over the lava rocks (no tilling) and cover with wood chips to hold the tree in place and hold in moisture without tilling.He said bringing in soil is unnecessary and that trees grow on rocks in nature all the time.For the wind break he’d use something that’s edible like blueberry. Sounds crazy to me but what do you guys think? I know some trees can grow on lava rocks live kiawe and Ohia, but do all trees have this capability?

As I drive around Hawaii, I start to notice that Hawaii soil is usually very shallow with a lava bedrock right underneath yet there is lush green plants growing all over . I’m wondering if th3 root system of the plants just grow horizontally to avoid the bedrock or are they growing into the bedrocks? Which reminds me of how shallow papaya tree roots grow when I one time lifted a papaya tree out of the ground with one hand making me look like hulk. Maybe tropical Hawaiian plants all have shallow root system or they just grow into the lava rocks? Some gardeners here told me their coffee trees just grow on top of lava rock.

I do have access to the ocean. Makes going to the beach more purposeful. Gardening + swimming fun

I was inspired by the perfect design in nature to garden. Therefore I try to work with nature as closely as possible and accelerate the process of succession. Recently  I had realized another perfect design on nature. Ocean view is windy because nature wants to erode the rocks to soil. Hilo on the other hand has like no wind because it doesn't require wind erosion like ocean view does. Coincidence or perfect design by a genius creator?                

Lichens sound interesting. How long will it take for lichen and wind erosion to erode rock to soil? I realize that this works with natural succession but can't we simply speed up succession by importing soil which is what the land wants? What are the  negative consequences of doing this?
Or what if we just have a machine that manually breaks the rocks into sand and add organic matter to it to create soil?

So I was considering the idea of swales but according to the owner of the site, the lava rock ground is over the top high drainage. Water just falls through the crevices of the rocks to under ground caves and runs off downhill underground.  I think This would defeat the purpose of swales since runoff occurs underground, not on the surface . Decreasing water drainage is a challenge I hadn't considered at first. The owner currently puts a plastic sheet underneath with small holes to mitigate water and soil and nutrients draining to the underground caverns.
I like the idea of zai holes and rocky berm. I think I can combine the two technique and do maybe underground hugelkultrt mini craters. It will be zai hole pit surrounded by rocky berm air well in the direction of where the wind comes. It will be filled and layered like hugelkulter. Branches and wood material at the bottom would hold moisture and slow drainage and soil nutrient loss. Does anybody have thoughts on this? I wanted something organic rather than plastic sheets to decrease drainage. What is optimal for this job? Or maybe it might be possible to create an artificial underground vessel system to collect rainwater mimicking the concept of ground water?

For the mini underground hugelkulter crater, I might layer the hugelkulter layer like compost layer and let it compost down before I plant anything. Does anyone know if red wiggles can survive in a hugelkulter layer to help it compost faster? Unlike normal ground that has worms which usually find their way to compost piles, there will be no worms attracted to my compost mini craters since there are no worms in the ground. Will the worms survive if I inoculate it with worms from my vermiculite bin? I'm trying to introduce all elements found in natural soil: micro organisms, worms, mulch on top, etc... I'm wondering if I'm missing any other elements? Would I need to introduce mycorizal fungi? Or will it appear naturally? Are there any more elements I need to import for soil life?    

I was also thinking I will do a massive crater garden to trap moisture , mitigate wind damage, and create microclimates for plants that normally cannot grow in ocean view. The crater garden will have a pond in the bottom and plants growing near it will have aquaponic benefits. The trapped humidity at the bottom the crater counters the dry air of ocean view . The different terraced layers will all have different microclimates to grow everything that the textbook tells me I can't grow.. I'm concerned however that the pond will become stagnant and breed mosquitos, which is a problem in Hawaii. Is there a natural way to make it so that the pond is flowing and living and breathing and does not breed an anaerobic environment? Maybe there is a certain type of water plant that breathes oxygen into the water?

For plants not growing in the crater, I plan to find plant varieties that can survive extreme wind climates, such as loquat. I will have the wind resistant fruit trees on the outer end of the garden to serve as wind barrier and normal fruit trees in the center and back of the garden. Anyone know any fruit trees that does well in windy condition besides loquat? I was also thinking of only doing dwarf tree as I read to they do better than Non dwarf in windy conditions . How deep and wide should I dig the crater pits to contain  the entire root system of the tree and not having the roots hit into hard lava rocks?

Thanks guys.

Hi. I'm posting here so I can get some feedback on this project I'm going to be working on.

I was offered 3 acre of land in Ocean View, Hawaii. The only problem is that there is no soil, the wind here is crazy, and there's like no rain. I'm going to lay out what I plan to do and hope I can get some feedback.

Take a look at my attached picture of what the "soil" looks like. There's pretty much no life. Just lava rocks. I don't even see birds, insects, animals. And I don't even think there's worms in the ground because it's just a pile of lava rocks.

Since there's no soil, I'm going to be importing massive amounts of soil. I think I'll need to be digging lava rocks out to make beds to hold the soil.

I was thinking of starting a massive bed as a worm bin. Dig out some lava rocks, fill in with dirt, worms, and throw in kitchen scraps and newspaper, etc... Cover with a tarp or wood chips (hay wouldn't be good cover here since wind probably will blow it away). I'm hoping this would generate a lot of microbial life and soil life that I can import to my other beds.

For the beds where I'll plant all my plants, I'm not sure how deep and wide I should make it to replicate a natural soil system. I believe the deeper and wider the better for more biodiversity. So I wasn't sure if I should make multiple small beds, or one or two gigantic beds to hold soil to plant all of my food forest.

I was thinking of layering the beds like hugelkulter or lasagna gardening. Since there is little rain, I need to lock in moisture. Perhaps the lava rock that are inevitably at the very bottom of the bed could help lock in moisture? Other than that, hugelkulter claims the logs and branches at the bottom of the bed helps hold in moisture. And on top of all this, I will cover with wood chips Back to Eden style. I was also hoping that the water that goes to groundwater has proper capillary channels to flow up to the surface when it gets dry. I'm not sure if groundwater can travel through lava rocks upwards like it can in normal soil with capillary channels. Any ideas?

I'm hoping I don't have to water as this place is on rain water catchment and water is very limited.

Next challenge would be the winds which is like strong enough to decapitate seedlings. I was thinking that all the trees would ultimately naturally block off the wind from the ocean. But I think short term, maybe building a bamboo wall on the south side might be a good idea?

For planting seeds, I'll do maybe 1/3 of the beds as fukuoka masanobu style. For the other 2/3, I want a bit more control. Pull back the wood chips, scatter seeds, pat the seeds into the soil, and recover with a thin layer of mulch to lock in moisture. I'll also import some bare root trees and start some trees from seeds as well.

I'm also looking for any suggestions on fruit trees or berry bushes that would thrive in this kind of condition.

I'm hoping within 3 years, I can bring a lot of biodiversity and start seeing birds, beneficial insects, microbial life, etc...

Thanks so much you guys.