bacon and cholesterol

From what I know about farming, attempting to grow all of the nutrients a person requires would take a lot more effort without the aid of animals and the food they produce and become.  I do not agree that it would take more land.  That's all the more I have to say about it, I'm not here to convince anyone that I'm right, only to (and I really was trying to be polite!) question the rational behind veganism.  Jessica is perfectly free to farm and eat however she thinks is best, and I wish her the best in her endeavors. 

I simply wanted to point out that there are consequences of food production to all ecosystems, regardless of where we source our nutrients.  I have noticed that sometimes it's easy to think that the ecosystem closer to our homes is more precious than the ones we haven't seen or don't live near/in.  Hence the belief that a palm tree mono culture is somehow "better" than a corn mono culture.  I see them both as equally detrimental.  I see pasture with cows grazing as beautiful, as it supports a wide variety of flora and fauna, while producing food without any fossil fuel at all, and in our temperate climate to boot!  The corn fields of the mid west were once the most incredible example of perennial grasses that existed, and it supported something like 20 million buffalo.  That's a lot of food! 

Jessica, there are grazing methods that improve the land.  I'd recommend checking out the videos on youtube of Polyface farm.  The grass there is the lushest thing I've ever seen, the cows are sleek and come when they're called.  I want our fields to look like that, our cows to behave like that, our milk to taste like that. 

Thank you for your input, as usual, Kerrick.  You're a born mediator, I think!

You're a born mediator, I think!

As my Grandma would say, "For my sins." Still, thank you for being so gracious about it.

I must admit I'm curious about what a vegan would would expect after posting in a thread titled "bacon and cholesterol" and reading all the "pro-meat" posts.  Jess sayin! 

marina phillips wrote:
I must admit I'm curious about what a vegan would would expect after posting in a thread titled "bacon and cholesterol" and reading all the "pro-meat" posts.  Jess sayin! 

I have always had a hard time keeping my mouth (or fingers, as the case may be) shut. I don't usually say anything to folks about their food choices, whatever they happen to be, but if vegetarianism gets brought up... I try not to, I really do, but I usually respond. Not just on the internet, in real life too, I'm a loudmouth.  ops:

I just responded because I hear the whole "the vegetarians I've known seem to be unhealthy..." a lot, and honestly, I do resent it. I've known people who are looking right at me saying they've only known pale sickly weak vegans, and it's so insulting! I'm a thin woman, always have been, but I spend nearly every day lifting fifty lb boxes. I am strong! I ride my bike and walk everywhere, I am fit and healthy, and I feel like when people say they don't know healthy vegans I want to be an example for that. I've only known healthy vegans. It's just who we are deciding to remember.

I did say that it was my fault for posting as a vegan on a pro-meat site, but still, I felt really bad like I was being picked on.

There is certainly room for improvement in my foods, I recognize that. That's why I'm working to change it and live in a way that I feel good about, but that would not be by using animal products, because I could never feel good about that. 

"Jess sayin!"  I should use that.

I speak as Admin here when I say this is not a pro-meat site, it's permies!  It's bigger than just 'meat'       I know that people can get wrapped up and forget to consider others, or be confrontational, none of which is helpful to the discussion at hand. 

BE NICE is the main directive, and should be the goal we all strive for.   So the thread, started by Paul W. was about bacon and cholesterol .....

Was I being mean?  Notice I stayed entirely away from the "omnivore's dilemma and vegetarianism" thread. 

There's a similar resentment on my part from the sorts of attitudes that vegans and vegetarians commonly espouse.  Kerrick's friend said it bluntly, but perfectly: "if you've 'thought about it' and you still eat meat, there's something wrong with you."  Deciding what we eat is far more nuanced than that.  I am tempted to start a thread about fat, for comparison's sake. 

Well ..... I would like to think that I'm not making things uncomfortable for vegans or vegetarians.

And, as the mighty overlord of this site, I think I can publicly say here and now that that is not the intent of this site.  If there is something like that going on, I would very much like to be directed to it - I must have skimmed over something. 

As for sickly vegans:  I suppose there are some.  And there are some sickly omnis too.  I know I have met a lot of vegans that seem mighty healthy.  I even wrote about the raw food diet and how those people seem super healthy and gained IQ points. 

After all, I would guess that at least half the permies I have ever met are vegetarians.

speaking of rawfood i was reading about rats who ate only raw produce with  there calories cut in half 
it  gave them an average life span 25% higher than control rat

side note: i have read similar studies on sleep, and temperature,

translation    Cold ,Tired, And Hungry  makes you live forever

charles johnson "carbonout" wrote:
speaking of rawfood i was reading about rats who ate only raw produce with  there calories cut in half 
it  gave them an average life span 25% higher than control rat

side note: i have read similar studies on sleep, and temperature,

translation    Cold ,Tired, And Hungry  makes you live forever

Calorie restriction, apparently, is incredibly effective in animal tests at increasing life-spans. I'm not sure a life of constant hunger is all that worth living, but I am an American and we aren't really trained to put up with that sort of thing. 

Oh, and very much exercise will decrease life-span. It's all very strange.

Has anyone seen the Fathead Movie?

Here's a trailer for it called Big Fat Lies. It says the studies used to link cholesterol and fats and heart disease were not good science.

The intro to this sounds similar to the keynote presentation given by Toby Hemenway at the 2008 Washington State Permaculture Convergence. Toby explained how we evolved to have a omnivore diet, with very little grains, and how our very recent big ag, mono-crop, grain-based diets have created huge declines in health and even physical stature.

So it seems many disparate sources are now saying it's the grains and carbs and trans fats (and sugars and refined foods) that are the culprit, not the animal fats.

There is a t-shirt for us bacon fans!

That's a fun one, Gwen Lynn! There's a food blog called Pork, Knife and Spoon, where the author reported this Jan. 28th story:

“BUENOS AIRES (Reuters) – Argentina’s president recommended pork as an alternative to Viagra Wednesday, saying she spent a satisfying weekend with her husband after eating barbecued pork.

“I’ve just been told something I didn’t know; that eating pork improves your sex life … I’d say it’s a lot nicer to eat a bit of grilled pork than take Viagra,” President Cristina Fernandez said to leaders of the pig farming industry.

She said she recently ate pork and “things went very well that weekend, so it could well be true.”

Argentines are the world’s biggest per capita consumers of beef, but the government has sought to promote pork as an alternative in recent years due to rising steak prices and as a way to diversify the meat industry.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
Has anyone seen the Fathead Movie?

Here's a trailer for it called Big Fat Lies. It says the studies used to link cholesterol and fats and heart disease were not good science.

What an excellent clip!

charles johnson "carbonout" wrote:
speaking of rawfood i was reading about rats who ate only raw produce with  there calories cut in half 
it  gave them an average life span 25% higher than control rat

side note: i have read similar studies on sleep, and temperature,

translation    Cold ,Tired, And Hungry  makes you live forever

Humans get far more heartbeats than most mammals get.

I strongly suspect that the metabolic clockwork that kicks in for most creatures under calorie restriction, is normally on in humans. There is so very much selection pressure due to the guidance of our elders, now that we have language.

My wife and I refer to ourselves as opportunistic feeders.    Personally I seem to do well as a vegetarian or an omnivore.    I've tried both.    My doctor has recommended that I consider cholesterol medication while stating that his cholesterol is higher than mine and he doesn't take medication

Everything in moderation seems to usually be the bottom line concerning health because we all have different metabolism and none of us reacts the same to anything,    be it hamburgers or tofu.
There are companion plants and companion food, bacon tomato and lettuce come quickly to mind for me.

Some of my best friends are vegetarians and one is close to being a carnivore.   I actually look forward to meals with all of us together, its a real hoot.

I am mostly here to learn and sometimes share.   Preaching is not permaculture.

gary wrote:
  My doctor has recommended that I consider cholesterol medication while stating that his cholesterol is higher than mine and he doesn't take medication

I'm glad you posted this comment your dr. made. Thanks! 

Based on the recommendation here, I went and watched the fat head movie. 

I think it had a lot of really good info.  I think the movie would be far better if they could have taken a higher road.  So the movie has lots of good info, and some cheap shots. 

They do cover several things that I think are very important:

1)  quality of fat, why, and myths around qualities of fats

2)  glycemic index

3)  I learned some very interesting things about low fat diets:  causing depression and lethargy.

4)  They did not advocate a no-carb diet, but they did advocate cutting back.  It seems that he at three meals a day at fast food and cut out the pop calories.  He lost 12 pounds during 28 days.

5)  They gave spurlock a first class kick in the nuts, which I think is the right thing to do.

6)  At one point, one of the physicians says something about humans were never designed to eat grain.  No mammal is designed to eat grain.  The only animal that can properly digest grain is birds.

Overall, I highly recommend watching this movie and just try to overlook the cheap shots.

bacon makes me happy.  i feed it to family when they visit.  they are happy too.

Cholesterol is an antioxidant.  When free radical stress is high, the body produces more cholesterol to compensate.  Many people experience high cholesterol levels in response to an abnormally high level of free radical stress.  In their case, taking supplemental antioxidants can ease this stress, causing the body to compensate less, leading to lower cholesterol levels.
  Sadly for them, most people are clueless about this, eat processed garbage, drink and smoke, so their free rad. level is high and so is cholesterol.  The cholesterol inactivates the free radicals, but is then made toxic (oxidized) itself.  This toxic oxidized cholesterol is gobbled up by white blood cells, out there cleaning up this gick until they are stuffed and die.  Many researchers feel that these dead w.b. cells, studfed with oxidized cholesterol, then contribute to the plaque on artery walls.

SO - if you eat lots of cholesterol you should be ok, all other things being equal, if you're getting lots of antioxidants, particularly fat-soluble antioxidants, in your diet.  If you don't eats lots and lots of green leafy vegetables, carrots, fresh blueberrries and other fruits, etc then supplementation is very helpful.

The supplements have't panned out, and the juices are just about useless, eating leafy greens and veggies is really the key.

Who would have thought eating good food would be good for you?

I, too, have lowered my cholesterol and blood pressure by switching to a low-carb diet and eating lots of meat.  Nonetheless, all red meat is not equal...  This Just In: 

Wall Street Journal, today:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704314904575250570943835414.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular


"A new study from the Harvard School of Public Health suggests that the heart risk long associated with red meat comes mostly from processed varieties such as bacon, sausage, hot dogs and cold cuts—and not from steak, hamburgers and other non-processed cuts."

DAMMIT! I love bacon.

You always have to be really careful when interpreting these kinds of reports.  Yes, bacon from Jimmy Dean is full of fillers and garbage.  The bacon I get at the farmers' market has 4 ingredients (pork, salt, a little sugar, and celery juice for curing) and is perfectly fine.

Real bacon is smoked, smoke has lots of nasty things in it, which is why the EPA regulates wood stoves.

Dear Paul, bless your heart for posting this as I just was diagnosed as prediabetic.

I have lived my entire life eating whole grains, fruits and vegetables and have denied myself much in the way of meat or fats.

Now i find out that the way i have been eating..the healthy way..is killing me and i have to start eating the fats and meats and fewer vegetables..

it is so hard to change my way of thinking after 59 years..but i'm trying to.

just reading your story here has been a blessing..I'm going to do this..this old fat lady is going to get healthy again..thanks..bre

Not fewer veggies, fewer starchy and sugary veggies.

thanks Emerson, got that. I'm going to follow the atkins food lists for the first 2 weeks of induction (started yesterday) to get a handle on that..and then i'm going to try to stick with the phase 2 of atkins for a while, which adds in some berries and other vegetables..and see what this does with my numbers..and my weight.

also changed my type of exercising for right now to walking 2 1/2 miles a day..and will gradually add back in my normal exercises (back injury)..when i'm able to..generally have been doing aerobics every day and toning exercises 3 days and weightlifting 3 days..but some of them are bothering my upper back injury..so right now i'm sticking with the walking and gardening.

I'll be curing and smoking some bacon and loins in the next couple of weeks, get a stock made before the snow flies. in playing around learning something every time, this week is smoked salmon week, gonna make 10 sides and freeze em, good to have ready with the holidays coming and great for gifting too.

I found low salt bacon better for me than the regular and although it is expensive I did find a low sugar bacon, which doesn't raise my blood sugar like the sugar cured stuff does..so that is a real benefit..wish I could cure my own, but like that's gonna happen.

I have eaten bacon or sausage every day for breakfast for 6 months and I'm doing much better..haven't gotten up to Pauls pound of bacon and half dozen eggs quite yet..tee hee..but getting plenty. I have several slices with 2 eggs for breakfast and use bacon to cook most of my other food in, making a lovely low carb crustfree pizza that is ground beef and bacon browned with green pepers, tomato, mushrooms and olives and of course cheese on top, plop it on a dish and eat it..also a great meal for me has been chip free taco salad, ground beef with the taco flavors and sauce over a huge bowl of fresh picked salad greens, tomato, and sometimes onion and green pepper, and of course some cheddar cheese melted in.

I'm going to be starting on a paleo diet next week, to try for a month  I need to lose about 25 pounds and lower my blood pressure.  Here's the guidelines I'll be following:  http://www.nerdheaven.dk/~jevk/paleo_intro.php#menus

I'm not going to be totally religious about it.  I will be eating some dairy, and drinking some wine and coffee, and probably eat a small amount of grain once a week (pizza night), but mainly trying to cut out grains and potatoes.  Which for me is a big change as I eat a lot of pasta.  So I will be substituting vegetables for grains, and eating more meat, which I eat very little of presently.

I wonder if human genetics don't almost deliberately weed out 80-90% of the population at the age of fifty which is about when wear and tear starts slowing us down

a tribe needs some elders but a lot of elders is a liability so maybe those of us who lose the genetic lottery and come up with heart disease strokes or cancer are supposed to just kick off before we start to slow the tribe up

Ludi wrote:
coffee, and probably eat a small amount of grain once a week (pizza night), but mainly trying to cut out grains and potatoes.  Which for me is a big change as I eat a lot of pasta.  So I will be substituting vegetables for grains, and eating more meat, which I eat very little of presently.

Zucchini  makes great pasta (spaghetti squash is fun too) We have a thing like a potato peeler that makes tiny strips that we cook like spaghetti.

I too have heard (from a Dr) that animal fats (saturated) are healthy and the study that said different was not done well. Ok, so wheres the money? Prepackaged, huge shelf-life ... transfats kill bacteria... (oh doesn't help us either) starchy food is cheap to produce has a huge markup.... makes lots of money... very convenient study. As with all things follow the money.

brice Moss wrote:
I wonder if human genetics don't almost deliberately weed out 80-90% of the population at the age of fifty which is about when wear and tear starts slowing us down

a tribe needs some elders but a lot of elders is a liability so maybe those of us who lose the genetic lottery and come up with heart disease strokes or cancer are supposed to just kick off before we start to slow the tribe up

Except hunter-gatherer don't tend to have those illnesses!

Len wrote:
Zucchini  makes great pasta (spaghetti squash is fun too) We have a thing like a potato peeler that makes tiny strips that we cook like spaghetti.

Thank you, I will definitely try that! 

tried the low carb thing once sure I started to lose weight but I also was just plain boggy compared to my normal speed, twas too rough on my energy levels,

then again I've never had a problem keeping weight reasonable so long as I stay active, but what I consider comfortable daily activity levels seems insane to a lot of folks

brice Moss wrote:
tried the low carb thing once sure I started to lose weight but I also was just plain boggy compared to my normal speed, twas too rough on my energy levels,

then again I've never had a problem keeping weight reasonable so long as I stay active, but what I consider comfortable daily activity levels seems insane to a lot of folks

I don't think carbs are the problem. I think it is the type of carbs. One of the doctors we talked to put it this way: When shopping, stay out of the aisles. You should know what is in your food. If you buy preprepared, you don't. Second, processed sugars and starches don't come with the things your body needs to break them down, the fresh veg and fruit do.

MSG = lab "work around" to get rats fat, found also to be addictive to humans. called by other names on the package so you won't recognize it.

I had an over active thyroid, they nuked it (radio active iodine) and now it is under-active. I started gaining weight, I was up to 210lb (i'm 5ft 10) I started working as a letter carrier (mail man) and am now down to 176. Exercise works. I eat lots. We use animal fat for cooking, we eat fruit and vegetables in their recognizable form. I make our bread and jams... jams use honey not processed sugar.

We are blessed to live next to a farming community where we can talk to the people who grow our food. We can get grass fed meat for example.

We used to think our son was allergic to eggs. Once we started buying from chickens fed no anti-biotics, his problem went away.

Our food chain is broken.

Sorry for the rant, it comes from the heart of a father who has seen his children suffer from "good whole" poison food.

they have redone the Atkins diet with new information and new science..the new book is called The New Atkins for a New You..the book is fantastic.

After I bought it and read it 3 weeks ago today I learned what all I had been doing wrong, a lot of people totally misunderstand Atkins.

Atkins now REQUIRES that you eat at least 12 to 15 grams of your carbs from foundation vegetables..which are mostlly the green ones and a few others like cauliflower and pumpkin and tomato ..but mostly green. there is still the food lists that they had before but they have been tweaked a little..and there are a lot of new recipes out there that can help you eat things that are tasty and delicious..like I just finished eating a flax seed meal muffin made with 1/4 c flax seed meal, 1 tsp butter, 1 tsp cinnamon (and I added some ginger too), 1 tsp splenda, 1/4 tsp baking powder and 1 egg..mixed in a mug or 1 cup pyrex measuring cup..zapped in the microwave for 1 minute and then tipped out onto a plate, makes one huge muffin..i ate it with a serving of splenda sweetened whipped cream.

my blood sugar is way down, my energy levels are through the roof !!! I've been on the real atkins diet for 3 weeks and have lost 12 pounds on it.

did it my way after May but not knowinig reallly what I was doing so I was doing things wrong then..but I bought the book 3 weeks ago, and now I'm doing it right.

I know a lot of you might come down on the splenda, but there are other sweeteners you can use if you want, like the stevia plant,  but right now with the blood sugar problems I'm staying totally away from sugar.

Hey Paul, maybe we could use a weight loss forum on here???

I won't get on ya about the splenda
but I will share, my body lets me know the stuff is toxic with a vengeance, I get anything with sucralose(splenda) in it and just exactly 3 hours later you'll find me in the closet with my migraine mask on

I basically don't eat much processed food and usually check ingredients.  Generally didn't eat anything with HFCS. I was eating some packaged snack chips with chemical crap in them.  No sugar or other sweeteners to speak of.  I did eat a lot of pasta, some whole grain, mostly not.  And brown rice.  But I'm going to try cutting those out completely.

I will admit I have been using a little splenda, but very little, to just give a few things a slightly sweet flavor, I'm not really fond of very sweet things anyway.